Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Have modern Pagan's missed the mark?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Have modern Pagan's missed the mark?

    Catchy title.... Serious though

    Have modern pagans missed the mark when we look back to the old stories, poems, influences, etc? I was sitting here thinking about Hekate and pondering the various works that are cited for things that are sacred to her or invoke images of her. The idea of snakes girdling her, forming hair or adorning her head as she rises up from the underworld to appear before Jason one of the images that came to mind. In part melding with the ongoing contemplation I've been having regarding the conflating of aspects of Medusa in particular and the Gorgon in general with Hekate in some aspects of Hellene mythology.

    Yet as all that has been coalescing in my head I kept getting images of how we use modern imagery and symbology to convey things today. Not to portray sacred images or thoughts but to use association and deeper cultural associations with an items placement within and the subliminal message generated by its inclusion. Sort of the idea of using green face on women and warty noses to suggest witches at Halloween along with a black cat. It's more of a cultural and psychological meaning more than anything else now more than a religious or occultist meaning when it is seen. The same could be said of the inclusion of various objects such as bones for the death, an Owl for Athena, a bow for Artemis, etc.

    So if I consider just how much of that usage of imagery and atmosphere is to be found in our own media and art why should I not assume it would not be present in the archaic works? Then if I presume it is there then should we not presume that many of the descriptions and imagery being created speak to the cultural and social norms and expectations of the day? Why should we expect Hekate to rise from the underworld with anything less than snake when the snake held such a cultural and social connection to the underworld in Hellene culture? Why wouldn't Hekate have so many characteristic's similar to the gorgon who was so closely connected to evil spirits and keeping evil away by its gauze when Hekate was associated with them as well as guarding entryways. Yet all that would also be things the viewer would already know and would be thinking upon viewing or hearing it so it would be present.

    The playwright didn't have to add much to the play for the audience already knew it. Little backstory needed for the audience already knew it and had the foundation laid. The subliminal message was already implanted.

    I know for me it seems the further I delve into discovering those I am sworn to the further I seem to move away from what others seem to see them as. Yes they are still mystical and magical and even powerful but they no longer seem fractured though that may not make sense as a statement. I suppose in many ways it seems, to me anyway, that people are focusing upon the props vice understanding what the props indicate and convey to the playwright who incorporates them into his / her play for the audience.
    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

    #2
    Re: Have modern Pagan's missed the mark?

    I'm not a Pagan. Buuuut. I'm guessing that those symbols that were used to describe deities 'back in the day' were modern and of the day way back when. They too were basing their gods with their own eye.
    Satan is my spirit animal

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Have modern Pagan's missed the mark?

      I was always a little not on board when say an object of execution became holy because the person killed was considered a saint. Or even as mentioned a bone from a saint considered holy and sacred because it was a part of the saints body. No matter how good I might be in life,my little pinkey toe will NEVER be able to heal a leaper or help you win the lottery...When the saint dies,the holy goes with their spirit...(My take anyway)

      - - - Updated - - -

      I think I crossed threads or something...My mind needs to have the oil changed I guess..
      Last edited by anunitu; 13 Aug 2016, 10:24.
      MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

      all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
      NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
      don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




      sigpic

      my new page here,let me know what you think.


      nothing but the shadow of what was

      witchvox
      http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Have modern Pagan's missed the mark?

        Originally posted by anunitu View Post
        I was always a little not on board when say an object of execution became holy because the person killed was considered a saint. Or even as mentioned a bone from a saint considered holy and sacred because it was a part of the saints body. No matter how good I might be in life,my little pinkey toe will NEVER be able to heal a leaper or help you win the lottery...When the saint dies,the holy goes with their spirit...(My take anyway)

        - - - Updated - - -

        I think I crossed threads or something...My mind needs to have the oil changed I guess..

        It wouldn't be hard to cross them. I considered joining them but though the idea of imagery and symbolism to suggest and inspire could be separated enough from the idea of sacredness and relics to generate two separate topics. Figure the idea of imagery and symbolism in my thoughts didn't need the concept of religion as a base component though it would be present as a mitigating factor in how it influenced ethics, fears, ideology, social and pseudo-scientific attempts to identify ones world.
        I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Have modern Pagan's missed the mark?

          Ah, I thought that post of yours was meant for the other thread, anu, but I also thought I was probably mistaken.

          - - - Updated - - -

          This reads very interestingly, but I'm not really sure if there is a question being posed, or there is something I'm missing which I can respond to. Maybe it's just my Saturday night dumbs.
          I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
          Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
          But that day you know I left my money
          And I thought of you only
          All that copper glowing fine

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Have modern Pagan's missed the mark?

            The thing I can kind of see as being considered sacred might be like a meteorite. Understandable because it might be considered a "Sign". The Muslims have the "Temple of the Rock" and their are places that are considered sacred a well. Some have attempted to find the "Ark" both ship and ark of the covenant because they believe both have some attachment to "God". "Holy ground" is a common belief as well.
            MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

            all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
            NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
            don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




            sigpic

            my new page here,let me know what you think.


            nothing but the shadow of what was

            witchvox
            http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Have modern Pagan's missed the mark?

              Originally posted by Briton View Post
              Ah, I thought that post of yours was meant for the other thread, anu, but I also thought I was probably mistaken.

              - - - Updated - - -

              This reads very interestingly, but I'm not really sure if there is a question being posed, or there is something I'm missing which I can respond to. Maybe it's just my Saturday night dumbs.
              Let me see if I can put it another way.

              If you were to go to the Globe theatre and watch one of Shakespeare's he didn't need to go into a lot of detail about some aspects for his sets and dialog relied upon the audience having a certain amount of background knowledge and awareness. So those observing the play related to the sets, the costumes and the political, social messages being conveyed without having to specifically being told that was what it was about. In many ways making the audience part of the jester as well as part of the play itself because of the presumption of them having a presumed understanding and knowledge of what various things implied and suggested.

              Today when we read those plays we don't immediately made those same connections because we do not have the same cultural, social, economic, religious influences. We go to great lengths discussing his plays and just what he was trying to convey and what is being told or presented in each play. Even with all the academic works dedicated to those works there is still quite a bit of debate about just what aspects of them refer to.

              It's like its unlikely that many will read those play's today and realize that all the parts portraying women would have been portrayed by young boys for many years as women would not have been allowed to work in theatre for many years for instance. Potentially using castrato's at times, but definitely boys.

              So when we read archaic poems, stories, sagas, eddas, etc and use those as source material for building material as to what is sacred for a divine being or associated with a divine being how much is artistic license and based upon cultural / social influences. For instance as I pointed out the association of snakes with Hekate not because of Hekate specifically being draped or adorned in snakes but because of the psychological imagery that the snake held in Hellene society and its association to the underworld. Its association to death and rebirth through its shedding of its skin and the film over its eyes and hibernation during the winter and rebirth during the summer. All things associated with chthonic deities in general. Things that by their presence suggest chthonic beings and associations in the minds of the observers. So the imagery is not specifically connected to the goddess as much as to the chthonic realm and imagery of beings from that realm.

              So the snake is not associated to Hekate persay but associated to the chthonic realms and its presence with Hekate and Jason suggests her association to her chthonic functions specifically vice her celestial or watery associations. Making it a chthonic association not a Hekate association which is what the imagery suggests to the audience which see's Hekate rising up from the earth and offering pit Jason has created and made his sacrifice into.
              I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Have modern Pagan's missed the mark?

                For how many centuries was a god/goddess worshipped? How many cultures adopted that deity? How much did the worship change between cultures and times?

                I understand your question, but (respectfully) consider it meaningless. The only was modern pagans could miss the mark would if there was some time when a unmoving mark existed (a golden age that "got it all right," then fell into error afterward. I do not believe that such a time ever existed.

                Change is. It's not right or wrong, it just is.
                Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Have modern Pagan's missed the mark?

                  Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                  For how many centuries was a god/goddess worshipped? How many cultures adopted that deity? How much did the worship change between cultures and times?

                  I understand your question, but (respectfully) consider it meaningless. The only was modern pagans could miss the mark would if there was some time when a unmoving mark existed (a golden age that "got it all right," then fell into error afterward. I do not believe that such a time ever existed.

                  Change is. It's not right or wrong, it just is.
                  But you considered it, that I think is what's important. NO right answer or wrong answer for as you pointed out there never was a golden age or period where any one group got it right except to the degree the observer uses a certain narrow lenses to observe through. Sort of the restricting Hekate to the Classical or Hellenistic period only for observation and discussion. Though I do think if your going to pull aspects from multiple periods you do have to understand the influences of each period to fully incorporate them. Otherwise, you run into the situation of pollution similar to the notion of "Rape" and the Persephone story in comparing modern usage compared to its usage in archaic Hellene usage.
                  I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Have modern Pagan's missed the mark?

                    I think it's important for modern pagans to understand that no matter how hard we search and adjust and try, what we believe will never 100% match what our ancestors did. No history is that perfectly preserved, and even if it was, as you said, our mindset is completely different. I believe that as long as we understand that, respect it, and go forward being as respectful as we can to tradition but acknowledging that our modernity is part of what we believe now, we're still "on the mark", as you say.
                    Army of Darkness: Guardians of the Chat

                    Honorary Nord.

                    Habbalah Vlogs

                    Comment

                    Working...
                    X