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Thread: Advice for working with developing watchers

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    Sr. Member Ouranos Ouroboros's Avatar
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    Question Advice for working with developing watchers

    Some of you will probably have heard of the term "watcher," but I'll explain for those who don't know the word or who have encountered this concept under another name.


    A watcher, in my personal spirituality, is a being which you set a particular task (such as helping with wards, divination, certain types of spells, etc.). Sometimes the watcher is non-sentient; this type is just a network of thoughts and/or intentions and/or abilities that you've set in motion - almost like a set of code or a heuristic that, while perhaps mimicking human processes, is not itself sentient. At other times, a watcher is sentient - it's something you create or evoke and then imbue with some of your own being and/or some of the essence of a trusted deity or other guide.


    So, I've been working with a watcher (as one of my warders) for several years now. It began as a construct that was given a spark of life, but which wasn't sentient and couldn't direct its own actions beyond a certain limit. But now this watcher has grown into something sentient. I don't know if it will stay with me throughout this development or take off on its own journey; I don't think it knows this about itself yet, in fact.


    I just wanted to know if any of you have had an experience in which a non-sentient watcher takes on a life of its own. If so, do you have any recommendations for how to proceed in the best manner possible? I've never encountered this particular situation before, so any advice would be greatly appreciated.
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    Opinionated Rae'ya's Avatar
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    Re: Advice for working with developing watchers

    I know these beings as 'servitors', not 'watchers'. Usually, it's responsible practice to create your servitor with failsafes to prevent them from evolving beyond your specifications... age limits, anchoring them to a vessel or object, an inability to obtain energy for themselves, physical or geographical constraints, self destruct cues etc etc. Unfortunately, many poorly defined servitors develop a certain level of sentience and autonomy... but because they are created beings rather than an entity, they cannot develop fully and therefore end up becoming astral nasties, leeches, or opportunistic scavengers.

    It's important to remember that we are directly responsible for the servitors that we create and release. If a servitor is no longer under our control, it's encumbant on us to ensure that it does not harm, feed from or latch onto another being. This usually means trapping or destroying it.

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    Live and learn anunitu's Avatar
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    Re: Advice for working with developing watchers

    Watchers also known as Grigori are referenced in Strega

    To some Strega they are known as the Grigori

    Here.

    Known by others as 'Nefilim. Also in the book of Enoch it speaks of the watchers.
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    Silver Member monsno_leedra's Avatar
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    Re: Advice for working with developing watchers

    To follow onto Rae'ya's entry of Servitor a Servitor can evolve into an egregore if enough people or power is feed into it within the ceremonial / high magics perspective. It is also believed that after a certain point and under certain conditions an egregore can attain a sense of self awareness and freedom where it becomes free roam and self aware to the point where it can function and sustain itself. Even obtaining a free roam status when the sigil that is part of its creation / destruction programming is destroyed and should destroy it but fails to do so but in fact releases it from any sort of control over it. The idea of the power word being feed into the egregore as in the Golem mythology can also create a free roam rogue.

    Egregori / Egregore is related to the term Grigori that annunitu makes mention of but goes back even further.

    When I was first taught about it though it was all part and parcel of the sequence of "Constructs" or stages a practitioner was introduced to. You started with the most basic of constructs such as dollies, minor guardians, etc.

    Tulpa's as mental constructs also fall into the near servitor / egregore role but if you read the eastern literature on them they are not servitors / egregore as those are typically seen in western magical systems. Constructs such as the Jewish Golems who are activated with magical words fall into higher level and might even pass into the category of inshrined or ensouled host body if you consider the power word in some stories is the "Breath of God" which sort of suggests God was powering the creation by his presence within the created body.
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    Opinionated Rae'ya's Avatar
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    Re: Advice for working with developing watchers

    Quote Originally Posted by anunitu View Post
    Watchers also known as Grigori are referenced in Strega

    To some Strega they are known as the Grigori

    Here.

    Known by others as 'Nefilim. Also in the book of Enoch it speaks of the watchers.
    I'm pretty sure Ouranos isn't talking about THE Watchers (as in, the progenitors of Nephilim)... but then I also disagree with the linked page and it's conflation of deities in different cultures as 'watchers'. For a start, the Anunnaki and the Nephilim are not the same group of entities. The Anunnaki are Sumerian gods, of which there are more than four. The Grigori (which is the Slavic name, not the Greek name) are a group of specific angels, also known as the Watchers, while the Nephilim are their half human offspring.

    I know that some pagans like to take a syncretist approach... but that particular website has tried to stretch it a bit too far.

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    Silver Member monsno_leedra's Avatar
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    Re: Advice for working with developing watchers

    Quote Originally Posted by Rae'ya View Post
    I'm pretty sure Ouranos isn't talking about THE Watchers (as in, the progenitors of Nephilim)... but then I also disagree with the linked page and it's conflation of deities in different cultures as 'watchers'. For a start, the Anunnaki and the Nephilim are not the same group of entities. The Anunnaki are Sumerian gods, of which there are more than four. The Grigori (which is the Slavic name, not the Greek name) are a group of specific angels, also known as the Watchers, while the Nephilim are their half human offspring.

    I know that some pagans like to take a syncretist approach... but that particular website has tried to stretch it a bit too far.
    What I was taught of the Grigori is they are the "Mind Watchers". Near as I can put it in words is the projected minds that would look in from afar and sort of existed separate but part of the person who projected that aspect of themselves. Not astral or etheral projection as it was sort of like they would reach out and borrow the eyes of creature's in the area to "See" through. Even if it was only reflected eyes as if in a mirror's reflection. The lady who taught me in my youth absolutely refused to teach that to me as I was to young in her opinion for that one. But she always kept mirrors covered at night or had candles burning in front of them near as I recall all these years later when they were uncovered.
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    The Gaze of the Abyss B. de Corbin's Avatar
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    Re: Advice for working with developing watchers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ouranos Ouroboros View Post
    So, I've been working with a watcher (as one of my warders) for several years now. It began as a construct that was given a spark of life, but which wasn't sentient and couldn't direct its own actions beyond a certain limit. But now this watcher has grown into something sentient. I don't know if it will stay with me throughout this development or take off on its own journey; I don't think it knows this about itself yet, in fact.
    Something described like this is what I would call "an automous psychic projection" (important note: I'm using the language of psychology because I understand that language. This does not mean that descriptions in the language of "the occult" are wrong - to me, it is just a different language). An autonomous psychic projection is a type of mental sub-entity that, for one reason or another, forms in the uncious mind and begins to act independently.

    Multiple personalities would be an extreme form of this, but in milder forms one might feel that their are entities around one that can speak or act.

    As Rea'ya wrote, an autonimous psychic projection needs to be re-integrated into the core personality (again, I am translating into the language of psychology) because it draws it's energy from the same source that the core personality draws it's energy. If not reabsorbed it can become overpowerful, harm the core personality, and suck it's energy - like a leech.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by monsno_leedra View Post
    What I was taught of the Grigori is they are the "Mind Watchers". Near as I can put it in words is the projected minds that would look in from afar and sort of existed separate but part of the person who projected that aspect of themselves. Not astral or etheral projection as it was sort of like they would reach out and borrow the eyes of creature's in the area to "See" through...
    This description sounds more like the "unmoved observer" that evolves after a period of serious meditation practice. I would not consider it dangerous, in fact, its a good thing. It is the self (the ego) strengthened to the point where it can monitor the actions of the body - and the bodily functions, such as anger - without being immersed in them.

    It is what allows a Buddhist practitioner to develop "detachment."
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    Silver Member monsno_leedra's Avatar
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    Re: Advice for working with developing watchers

    Quote Originally Posted by B. de Corbin View Post
    Something described like this is what I would call "an automous psychic projection" (important note: I'm using the language of psychology because I understand that language. This does not mean that descriptions in the language of "the occult" are wrong - to me, it is just a different language). An autonomous psychic projection is a type of mental sub-entity that, for one reason or another, forms in the uncious mind and begins to act independently.

    Multiple personalities would be an extreme form of this, but in milder forms one might feel that their are entities around one that can speak or act.

    As Rea'ya wrote, an autonimous psychic projection needs to be re-integrated into the core personality (again, I am translating into the language of psychology) because it draws it's energy from the same source that the core personality draws it's energy. If not reabsorbed it can become overpowerful, harm the core personality, and suck it's energy - like a leech.

    - - - Updated - - -



    This description sounds more like the "unmoved observer" that evolves after a period of serious meditation practice. I would not consider it dangerous, in fact, its a good thing. It is the self (the ego) strengthened to the point where it can monitor the actions of the body - and the bodily functions, such as anger - without being immersed in them.

    It is what allows a Buddhist practitioner to develop "detachment."
    Sounds like your talking about soul fragments or fractured souls. It / they draw their power and strength from the energy of the being they are fractured from within the context of some shamanic beliefs / practices. Though psychology wise it would / could be multi-personalities I suppose. I think from the shamanic aspect though it is recognized that the fractured aspect maybe human of any age for when the fracture occurred but may also be seen as animal like in that it is more beast than human as it is more primordial. The so called snarling beast mind / monkey mind or animal within vice the higher human mind. Gets somewhat iffy though I suppose in that it can be a physical / psychological ideal or a theological / cultural ideal of self and / or spirit that can be fractured from the individual.

    It is possible I didn't understand exactly why she though it was dangerous for me as I was barely into my teens at the time. Emotionally, psychologically, physically, spiritually, occult wise I probably was head strong and stubborn in the extreme. I know my own family had introduced me to things then stopped them until a few more years had passed until I matured some more as I was quick tempered for example. Didn't look for trouble but didn't really walk away from it either. Sad part is some of the things she started to open me up to ended when my family moved so I never got to finish the book so to speak. Yet other's have talked to me and listened to things I've described and told me she got me a lot further than I ever figured she did.

    Many times over the years it seems dangerous was not that something was dangerous in and of itself the danger lay in me due to my age or attitude / disposition towards things. Which did make it dangerous though there was a difference between cause and causality.
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    Silver Member anubisa's Avatar
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    Re: Advice for working with developing watchers

    I've used divination and meditation before, but I can't exactly be sure to help you. You might try developing through out-of-body experiences as mentioned above. I'm not experienced like others are in this forum. Good luck.
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    Opinionated Rae'ya's Avatar
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    Re: Advice for working with developing watchers

    Quote Originally Posted by monsno_leedra View Post
    What I was taught of the Grigori is they are the "Mind Watchers". Near as I can put it in words is the projected minds that would look in from afar and sort of existed separate but part of the person who projected that aspect of themselves. Not astral or etheral projection as it was sort of like they would reach out and borrow the eyes of creature's in the area to "See" through. Even if it was only reflected eyes as if in a mirror's reflection. The lady who taught me in my youth absolutely refused to teach that to me as I was to young in her opinion for that one. But she always kept mirrors covered at night or had candles burning in front of them near as I recall all these years later when they were uncovered.
    Honestly Monsno, I find this explanation a bit confusing. Was your teacher from Stregheria? From what I can tell, certain traditions have bastardised the Grigori based on the fact that they are called 'The Watchers' and that their name sounds like 'egregore'.

    The Grigori come from the Book of Enoch. In Greek they are called the 'egregoroi', which in Slavic is 'Grigori', both of which have been transliterated into English as 'The Watchers' (from watchful/wakeful etc). They are angels who were originally set to watch over humans, but they ended up defecting (some say because of lust... some say because they became fond of humans and didn't like the treatment they normally got from other angels), teaching humans a whole lot of things they weren't supposed to teach us, then bred with human women and produced a race of human-angel hybrids called the Nephilim. There is also some suggestion that the Grigori are the host of fallen angels, and that the fall of the Grigori is the same event as the fall of ha Satan and his angels (who then became 'Demons'). The story is also mentioned in Jewish texts.

    The fact that the Grigori are called 'The Watchers' has nothing to do with any sort of guarding circles, doorways or quarters. It's because the term 'egregoroi' means something roughly equivalent to 'watcher/watchful'. Because their job was to watch over the human race. The term 'egregoroi' is the root of the term 'egregore' (one is Greek, the other is French), but the use of the word 'egregore' that we know today was developed relatively late by ceremonial magicians and was not used to describe the Grigori.

    If anyone wants to know more about the Grigori as angels and progenitors of the Nephilim, I'll see if I can convince Torey to pop in and give you all the gory details with full references. This is one of his areas of expertise.

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