Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 11 to 17 of 17

Thread: Advice for working with developing watchers

  1. #11
    Silver Member monsno_leedra's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    2,626
    Religion
    Shamanic Practitioner & Green / Hedge Witch with Hellenic leanings
    Location
    West Virginia
    Phrase
    Can't never did nothing till it tried!

    Re: Advice for working with developing watchers

    Quote Originally Posted by Rae'ya View Post
    Honestly Monsno, I find this explanation a bit confusing. Was your teacher from Stregheria? From what I can tell, certain traditions have bastardised the Grigori based on the fact that they are called 'The Watchers' and that their name sounds like 'egregore'.
    All I can honestly say is she was an older Italian lady and I think her family came from Sicily but not positive on where she came from. Some of the terms she used are Stregherian some are not which always lead me to believe it was more of a folk practice. But then again Stregia as a whole was a folk practice and was different in varying parts of Italy even though a few authors have tried to paint it as some collective semi-uniform type practice.

    Word usage wise to be honest I simply use a word's meaning by how I was taught. Sort of like the word "HOG". I was raised with a hog being a large pig and a heavy hand gun. You knew the difference by how the word was used. Later the Hog motorcycle was added as well as the description of "hog" for the person who eats and eats. Did it bastardize the word? Perhaps.

    How she used and passed down her understanding and usage of Grigori, as well as how I understood it, may be bastardized, I really do not know. Heck maybe even how she had to put it into words for me to understand and her broken English to get it across confused it. But in my youth she didn't sound strange or unusual to me though later in life people would ask me how I understood her as they said she had broken English. But heck, people would ask how I could be drunk and be speaking to drunk Scot's and we'd be speaking no problem and they'd not understand nearly a word any of us would be saying with our accents.

    I do know she eye's everywhere. Did you know Roses have eyes? Don't see that one printed in most of those Streghian book's but met a few practitioners while I was in Sicily and in Northern Italy. Have spoken to a few on-line via Pm's who would ask me about the Rose eye's. Those roses are sometimes known as watchers and there was a logical pattern to how they were planted around a person's home. I used to try to sneak up on her house at different times via different routes and she would tell me the watchers would tell her and show her how I approached.

    I understand what your saying about the biblical usage of Watchers and the Book of Enoch. Even the notion of revolting from their jobs for whatever reason. Even how the term was borrowed later as part of the western mystical movements. Not only borrowed but modified or perhaps updated to make it fit a new usage or agenda. But I also understand humanity and language tends to re-purpose words quite frequently even to the point that a word looses all connections to its original meaning or purpose.

    But if you look I never said anything about guarding circles, doorways or quarters. I just said they could reach out, borrow and see through other "Eyes" and were like projected minds. If I take what she taught me and apply it to my own life I have to come to the conclusion she was referring to the capacity of a parent that seems to always be of two minds. One mind always aware of their present and one mind always aware of what is happening to those they are watching from afar. Seeing all that is occurring even though they are not there but able to tell you exactly what is going on when they are hurt, when they are scared, when they are down and depressed even when they are coming to visit or what they are experiencing when they are driving away. The watcher from afar who see's through other eyes and yes can even influence and make their presence known but its not astral or etheral projection its not dream walking or any sort of projection in that common pagan / occultish sense that fills the books. For in many instances those watchers are tied into all the eyes that are part of their surroundings and are viewing all the inputs and shift their attentions and focus to a single point as needed.

    For her and her beliefs and teachings they were called the Grigori the watchers.
    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

  2. #12
    Supporter Jembru's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    3,477
    Gender
    female
    Religion
    Shamanist Witch with heady Celtic notes and a faint wiccan bouquet
    Location
    North East England

    Re: Advice for working with developing watchers

    How does this concept differ from thought forms or golems? Is it the same concept? If so, then I think I've had the experience of a thought form becoming an entity in its own right, but he now lives in my inner world and has a job to do there, so he isn't causing any trouble.

    In his book Awakening Spirits, Tom Brown Jr. describes a story his spiritual teacher told him. In it a man receives a gargoyle-like demon from a sorcerer to help him with his chores. He's warned to keep it busy or else it will cause mischief. The man runs out of jobs for the demon which grows bigger and bigger and gets out of control. He eventually pacifies the demon by ordering it to straighten a curly hair, which of course bounces back as soon as the demon let's go, and so keeps it busy indefinitely.

    The story was used as a metaphor for the conscious mind and how sometimes it needs to be kept busy by focusing on breathing, or counting etc, in order to allow the subconscious or higher self to be heard. However, I also took it a bit more literally as a warning that these beings we create to do our bidding need to be kept busy or else have time restrictions etc, to prevent them from causing mayhem when the job they were created to do has been completed.
    夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

  3. #13
    Sr. Member Ouranos Ouroboros's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    168
    Gender
    male
    Religion
    eclectic neo-pagan
    Location
    Erewhon

    Re: Advice for working with developing watchers

    This is a fascinating conversation, though I'm unfamiliar with many of the traditions and beings referenced. Even if I don't address all of the responses directly, I've attentively read all of them.


    I recently read a brief article about Stregheria and would like to look into it more. I really don't feel much resonance with Jewish archetypes, though I find the language (especially its tri-literal systems of roots and its expression in cantillation) to be quite amazing. I was taught the Guardians of the Watchtowers are sets of symbols and not entities at all, but others might disagree; I don't call to the Guardians of the Watchtowers unless I'm working with others who are comfortable with that language - and I always use my own set of symbols to cast the circle, even if I'm also using others.


    The watcher began as something that a conscious animal archetype/ deity helped to imbue with consciousness. And it began, pretty early on, to occasionally do things that I hadn't directed it to do, though they were in keeping with my moral code. In fact, its primary interest in the first year or two (at our old house) was to help even more people than it had been asked to. Its primary location shifted to the crossroad near that house, and the spirit began to influence other households. It also began to ruminate over data it obtained from the creatures in the area, using their experiences to grow. I didn't mind, even if it sometimes asked for extra energy, because it made the neighborhood safer and insisted that it only benefit others, and only in accordance with their own moral codes except where me or my family or friends might be adversely affected otherwise. At this house, the spirit has moved away from its animal-based incarnation and has taken on the form of a person from one of the Germanic myths that was (though it was probably already quite old) collected by the brothers Grimm. The entity is using this archetype for its current personality, even as it reaches out to collect more stories. At present, we've agreed that it should stop functioning as a warder (perhaps temporarily, perhaps permanently) because it is examining morality for itself and might develop different viewpoints from my own. I've always found the entity to be scrupulously conscientious, however, and I've never worried that it might harm anyone without clear cause. I've also never felt I should try to prevent its evolution or cause it to self-destruct or anything like that. I think the entity and the deity that helped imbue it with consciousness would view that as improper, if not offensive, conduct on my part. I'm not saying that would be wrong in other cases, but I feel very strongly that it would in this one.


    I'll keep an eye on this thread. I'm loving the conversation and will keep following it if people want to keep sharing. Thanks, everyone!
    OO

    Book of Spirals is my author site.
    The Sentient Hillside is my blog.
    Spiral Tree is an ezine for pagans I co-founded.

  4. #14
    Supporter Jembru's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    3,477
    Gender
    female
    Religion
    Shamanist Witch with heady Celtic notes and a faint wiccan bouquet
    Location
    North East England

    Re: Advice for working with developing watchers

    Thanks for sharing your experience Ouranos Ouroboros. It sounds like I might be talking about the same thing then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ouranos Ouroboros View Post
    I'll keep an eye on this thread. I'm loving the conversation and will keep following it if people want to keep sharing. Thanks, everyone!
    Does this mean you'd like us to share our own experiences? If it means we can talk about something that isn't the US election, I guess I'm willing to bare all and share one of mine.

    I've rarely worked with thought forms in recent years, but I might have made one accidentally recently...

    After a break of several months I was struggling to get back into studying Japanese. When I was first learning to speak I used to pretend to have a conversation with a kokeshi doll. I wanted to do this again because it's hard to practice conversation on your own, and I thought it might make studying more fun. I got myself a new kokeshi doll, but used the same name for her.

    The doll (I) can speak more freely these days so it's much more effective this time around. When I speak irl I'll often correct myself because my mouth moves faster than my brain, so when I'm chatting to the doll, she corrects me instead. Nothing supernatural so far... it's just me talking to myself.

    Then the doll started offering more information. Sometimes I'd ask how to say something and then answer for the doll and look up what she said, and she'd often be right.

    This made me see the doll as a key to accessing knowledge that I'm not aware I have. For example, my subconscious may have noticed a phrase or pattern while I was listening to native speakers, but I never consciously acknowledged it. The doll just helped to unlock that knowledge. Still not a spirit in her own right though.

    Then last week I was about to study so started chatting to the doll. She suggested that I warm up like I'd have my students do when I taught English. The warm up would be some kind of word game that focused on vocabulary that would come up in the lesson. I didn't know what would come up in my textbook so couldn't tailor the activity to relevant vocab, but I opened a picture dictionary and started naming things in an image of a post office. There were two words I didn't know 'knot' (musubime)'and 'bow knot' (choumusubi). These both come from the verb 'musubu' meaning 'to tie', which I did know.

    Then I opened the textbook and the lesson was about pareidolia (seeing images or faces in objects). It used the example of that cat's cradle game where you make shapes by winding yarn around your hands, explaining that people from different regions give the shapes different names depending on the local landscape and culture. The article used a lot of words derived from 'musubu', not only literally to describe the cat's cradle game, but also figuratively as in 'associating one thing with another' or the objects being 'connected' in your mind.

    It was so weird, like the doll planned the whole lesson. It was then that I realised I'd probably made a thought form. When I used to make them in the past I would attach them to a statue or object, so maybe talking to a wooden doll triggered the process unconsciously and I made myself a Japanese tutor!

    Either that, or its Chucky all over again!
    夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

  5. #15
    Sr. Member Ouranos Ouroboros's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    168
    Gender
    male
    Religion
    eclectic neo-pagan
    Location
    Erewhon

    Re: Advice for working with developing watchers

    As entertaining as I find Chucky (and Tiff), I hope that doesn't happen in your classroom!


    It sounds like the doll has either become a focus, or maybe just a repository, of conscious and subconscious linguistic knowledge; it may also have become a (probably non-sentient) watcher. I've never had an object serve as a focus in quite the way you're describing, but that's probably because my psychometry skills are very low (I tend to work with abstract thought-objects in many, if not most, cases).


    Still, I don't see any obvious problem with your doll; indeed, it appears to be helping both you and your students. You might want to talk to a spirit guide you trust just to make sure any developing personality holds values that are parallel to yours and that there are no opportunities for harmful spirits to enter. But, assuming the doll passes this test, it sounds like a very effective tool.


    In fact, I've been wanting to brush up on my French and modern Greek. Maybe I should get a doll...
    Last edited by Ouranos Ouroboros; 21 Nov 2016 at 17:37.
    OO

    Book of Spirals is my author site.
    The Sentient Hillside is my blog.
    Spiral Tree is an ezine for pagans I co-founded.

  6. #16
    Loud Mouth Heka's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    3,918
    Religion
    Northern Tradition Neo-Paganism
    Location
    South Australia
    Phrase
    I drink, and I know things
    Quote Originally Posted by Ouranos Ouroboros View Post
    In fact, I've been wanting to brush up on my French and modern Greek. Maybe I should get a doll...
    You mean I can program a doll/non-corporal thang to help me learn languages?!?!

    These sound like Sendings to me. From Garth Nix's "Old Kingdom Series". But then that's probably where his inspiration came from.
    ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

    RIP

    I have never been across the way
    Seen the desert and the birds
    You cut your hair short
    Like a shush to an insult
    The world had been yelling
    Since the day you were born
    Revolting with anger
    While it smiled like it was cute
    That everything was shit.

    - J. Wylder

  7. #17
    Supporter Jembru's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    3,477
    Gender
    female
    Religion
    Shamanist Witch with heady Celtic notes and a faint wiccan bouquet
    Location
    North East England

    Re: Advice for working with developing watchers

    Quote Originally Posted by Heka View Post
    You mean I can program a doll/non-corporal thang to help me learn languages?!?!

    These sound like Sendings to me. From Garth Nix's "Old Kingdom Series". But then that's probably where his inspiration came from.
    Well I didn't do it on purpose so I don't know if it would work for others. It just started as an innocent excuse to practice conversations. I keep an audio journal but as a fellow foreign language speaker you probably know yourself that there's a natural rythm to a conversation, and verbal (and non-verbal) markers that let the speaker know when it's their turn to speak, or when you have more to say, or to let the speaker know you're following them. You don't get to practice that in a monologue, so the doll was just to help me practice my 'oh really?', 'you're kidding me?' And '..ya know?'s so they flow more spontaneously and naturally.
    夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

Similar Threads

  1. Developing a Relationship with the Home
    By Jembru in forum Hearth and Home
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 28 Jun 2016, 07:59
  2. Developing the 6th eye chakra
    By Gleb in forum Religion and Spirituality Discussion
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 02 Feb 2016, 01:39
  3. Developing 6th sense
    By Gleb in forum Catacombs
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 03 Feb 2015, 20:59
  4. Weight Watchers
    By LiadanWillows in forum Hobbies
    Replies: 54
    Last Post: 15 Feb 2011, 19:35

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •