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  • #16
    Re: Positive, negative, and no stimulation

    I think what's bad is bullying is part of the teenager process of finding themselves and their place but it gets screwed up as well. It's all part and parcel of the discovering a pecking order and their place within the social order and stratification within their peer group, economic group, social group and to a degree even their cultural group. It sucks and we tend to try and ignore it when we hold a place above that teen order. Yet forget we went through it ourselves and continue to experience it all through our adult lives though the means and manner it takes changes.

    The brutality of it doesn't per say change, just the methods that are employed. It starts on the elementary school play grounds and sports grounds and is wound into nearly all aspects of our lives. Whether it be our love courtships, work relationships, friendships, competitions, competitive events and practices we belong to and even inter / intra familial relationships. I separate competitions and competitive events as competitions maybe as simple as competitions between co-workers who we compete against for raises or job openings where competitive events I tend to place as sports or other competitive things that we knowingly compete against another seeking to win.
    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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    • #17
      Re: Positive, negative, and no stimulation

      Originally posted by Heka View Post
      Bullying isn't normal teenage behaviour. It shits me when it gets dismissed.
      My worst bullying story is from middle school, where kids started spreading rumors that I was a lesbian. Rather than actually trying to do anything, the principal told me to ignore it, just stupid kids being stupid kids.

      Fast forward to when I was a 100-pound 7th grader being shoved around in the hallways by 150 (and one even 200) pound eighth graders so I'd crash into their buddies and they'd get my "lesbian cooties" (let me remind you, these kids were only a few months from being high school students). The principle told me to ignore it, just stupid kids being stupid kids.


      In high school, we had to sit through all these "rallies" about how bullying is bad and hurts people, and many teachers and administrators decided that would accomplish everything they needed, and sometimes the lack of oversight is atrocious. I think the only time I ever saw a teacher step in was when someone lobbed a scalpel in my direction because he didn't like my face. (But props to the one teacher who was so strict about bullying, she wouldn't even allow self-deprecation)

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      Edit: The other issue with the rumors and my subsequent treatment is that if forced my friend further into the closet, and she started pushing me away because people would think we were a couple. Knowing what I know now, I think that's the saddest thing. And who knows? We might have made a cute couple.

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      • #18
        Re: Positive, negative, and no stimulation

        Originally posted by Chessa View Post
        My worst bullying story is from middle school, where kids started spreading rumors that I was a lesbian. Rather than actually trying to do anything, the principal told me to ignore it, just stupid kids being stupid kids.

        Fast forward to when I was a 100-pound 7th grader being shoved around in the hallways by 150 (and one even 200) pound eighth graders so I'd crash into their buddies and they'd get my "lesbian cooties" (let me remind you, these kids were only a few months from being high school students). The principle told me to ignore it, just stupid kids being stupid kids.


        In high school, we had to sit through all these "rallies" about how bullying is bad and hurts people, and many teachers and administrators decided that would accomplish everything they needed, and sometimes the lack of oversight is atrocious. I think the only time I ever saw a teacher step in was when someone lobbed a scalpel in my direction because he didn't like my face. (But props to the one teacher who was so strict about bullying, she wouldn't even allow self-deprecation)

        - - - Updated - - -

        Edit: The other issue with the rumors and my subsequent treatment is that if forced my friend further into the closet, and she started pushing me away because people would think we were a couple. Knowing what I know now, I think that's the saddest thing. And who knows? We might have made a cute couple.
        Sorry to hear that. Unfortunately that an example where the bullying goes wrong and is condoned by the establishment, in your case by its silence.

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        I say goes wrong because for many that is an issue of confusion and exploration and social and cultural pushing and prodding is a big battle that many will experience. Education can turn the situation into an acceptance scenario and enlightenment but it can also force it into a true darkness and destruction. Apparently by your later addition it became such a darkness and destruction fallout.
        I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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        • #19
          Re: Positive, negative, and no stimulation

          Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
          Not directed at you individually but the comment in general made me think about all the ______ child gibberish. Usually as a justification as to why a child fails in general and is in conflict with society and social norms because they are special. Didn't matter whether they were Star Children, Indigo Children, Rainbow Children, Crystal Children or whatever the latest usage happens to be it's always the same and the criteria keeps growing larger and larger as the dynamic range opens wider and wider. Regardless of the system being addressed it's always a failure of the system vice a failure of the child. Even when the system is developed by the children within the system it's the system that is a failure not the participants within the system who have failed. That is one of the basic requirements of all of the ______ Child perspectives to justify why the child is special and outside the norms of the system.


          I do agree that the development of the child's brain and stages of development will always vary. As such a child's ability to make decisions and such will greatly vary depending upon age, mental development, experience and other factors. Same as their ability to abstract think and consider ramifications of their actions but there still has to be accountability. There still has to be boundaries and limitations with corresponding punishments / rewards for acceptable and in-acceptable behavior.


          From a perspective of acceptable and unacceptable behavior and what I see in society today there is more disrespect and such than anything I ever saw growing up. I see kids in school struggle today because teacher's can't teach because they are spending more time taking care of the 5 - 10 percent that cause trouble and have to be constantly watched. Starting right at the elementary level and continuing all the way to graduating from high school, assuming they make it that far. When 90 percent of your time is taken by 1 - 5 percent of your student body then the balance is going to produce corrupted results. Your upper 10 - 15 percent on average will motivate themselves on average, the middle group will probably get by, the lower percentage may get by but struggle or possibly grow frustrated and give up, the lower percentage but above that very bottom taking the teacher main attention will suffer the most. Then as you progress higher up through the grades the stratification gets even worse as you factor in peer pressure, cliques, economic pressures, heck even things such as nepotism or favoritism.


          But going back to the ______ Child it's always the argument the system fails the child. Ignoring the fact we are often a self motivating creature as well as a heard minded creature, so a failure is equally attributed to either side. Yet it seem's, to me anyway, when the person fails as a self motivator it's the system's fought. When they fail under the herd mentality then it's the system's fought. Yet very seldom are we willing to come and say "You know what, it's the person's fought" because that is seen as being to harsh and unfeeling. Especially since it robs them and us of the ability of laying blame every where else for our failures.


          Sort of like my grand-daughter or grand-sons when they come home from school with a bad grade. The teacher didn't help them, the subject was to hard, they didn't understand, etc, etc, etc yet when ask did they ask for help, no..did they study no...did they bring their book home no... but that shouldn't matter according to them..Two of the three fall in the special needs programs under various programs for different reasons..Do they comprehend? Yes but its also selective ..Do I want to Study or do I want to play? Hm Play The system didn't fail them but their parents sure claimed it did that's why we have them now and their parent's don't. But like the ______ Children it was pushed to justify why they couldn't do something as an excuse and allow for failure in my opinion.

          Thanks for the interesting and thoughtful comments. I certainly don't think all children are blameless all the time; I just tend to look at the actions of parents, teachers, and other adults before I look at what children (who may not be able to understand their own behavior) have done or try to assign blame to the child. But the blame certainly rests with the child in many cases - and, when it does, I try to respond with compassionate discipline.


          (I’d like to quickly mention that I never, ever spank children, however. In addition to reducing intelligence and increasing subsequent aggressive behavior, spanking sends the message that, as an adult, it’s okay to hit someone when you’re frustrated with them… and kids will definitely pick up on that message.)


          From the points of view you’ve expressed, I think we're coming from two somewhat different views of child psychology. You seem to be focusing on behavior, whereas I try to focus more on cognition. I'm not saying your point of view is wrong; many teachers prefer behaviorist (Skinnerian and otherwise) methods above methods of cognitive psychology. You might find authors who are sympathetic to your viewpoints by looking into some behaviorist literature, but it's just a suggestion.


          Originally posted by Heka View Post
          We have IEPs too. And yep, never reviewed haha. Bloody irritating. But then in my subject areas it's not a priority. Plus, i teach to every kid as an individual, regardless of an IEP




          My school has 38 students from age 5-18. We don't have a seperate class. What a novelty. Bigger towns often have 'Special School's' though, which can group kids more appropriately by disability.






          See now they kids with psychopathic tendancies, and the cliques who bully are different things. No doubt there's overlap, but what you're talking about is straight up bullying. Bullying is NEVER ok, and the teachers and other adults who saw this behaviour and did nothing to help that student are to blame for her death. The students bullying her are too, but I'd lay the blame on the adults who failed her. Kids are arseholes, it's up to adults to set the standard.


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          Maslows is being taught, here anyway.


          Psychopathy I probably have, and if I sat here and thought about it I'd come up with one or two with traits no doubt. As I said in the previous post, though, my current school has 38 kids, my last one had 130. Not a lot of kids to compare with really haha

          I’m glad they’re teaching Maslow’s… assuming they’re teaching it to at least the third level of Bloom’s Taxonomy…


          Some bullies are psychopaths, but I think most are exhibiting behavior that is more sociopathic. It can vary widely from person to person and situation to situation, however.


          You certainly don't strike me as psychopathic; you would appear to be too compassionate to fit into that category. And you may not have encountered a psychopathic student (or may have encountered very few) because of the relatively low (though still very challenging) number of students in the student bodies with which you've worked.


          Originally posted by Chessa View Post
          My worst bullying story is from middle school, where kids started spreading rumors that I was a lesbian. Rather than actually trying to do anything, the principal told me to ignore it, just stupid kids being stupid kids.


          Fast forward to when I was a 100-pound 7th grader being shoved around in the hallways by 150 (and one even 200) pound eighth graders so I'd crash into their buddies and they'd get my "lesbian cooties" (let me remind you, these kids were only a few months from being high school students). The principle told me to ignore it, just stupid kids being stupid kids.




          In high school, we had to sit through all these "rallies" about how bullying is bad and hurts people, and many teachers and administrators decided that would accomplish everything they needed, and sometimes the lack of oversight is atrocious. I think the only time I ever saw a teacher step in was when someone lobbed a scalpel in my direction because he didn't like my face. (But props to the one teacher who was so strict about bullying, she wouldn't even allow self-deprecation)


          - - - Updated - - -


          Edit: The other issue with the rumors and my subsequent treatment is that if forced my friend further into the closet, and she started pushing me away because people would think we were a couple. Knowing what I know now, I think that's the saddest thing. And who knows? We might have made a cute couple.

          I'm so sorry about your bullying experiences! I, too, have seen many an administrator turn away and ignore bullying, especially when it's teachers or other administrators who are doing the bullying - or when the bullying is being perpetrated by the children of the wealthy. At one point, my high school choir teacher physically attacked me in front of about 30 others, but the vice principal refused to even gather statements from any of the witnesses. He just told me it was probably my fault and dismissed my concerns. I think most school administrators understand that silence is the best ally of the status quo - so, if they're happy, they don't care whether others are. Again, though, I'm not making a universal statement, just a tendential one (based on my personal experiences).
          OO

          Book of Spirals is my author site.
          The Sentient Hillside is my blog.
          Spiral Tree is an ezine for pagans I co-founded.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Ouranos Ouroboros View Post

            I’m glad they’re teaching Maslow’s… assuming they’re teaching it to at least the third level of Bloom’s Taxonomy…

            Some bullies are psychopaths, but I think most are exhibiting behavior that is more sociopathic. It can vary widely from person to person and situation to situation, however.

            You certainly don't strike me as psychopathic; you would appear to be too compassionate to fit into that category. And you may not have encountered a psychopathic student (or may have encountered very few) because of the relatively low (though still very challenging) number of students in the student bodies with which you've worked.
            Yeah, both are taught. Usually in the form of convenient pyramids...

            Psycho/socio... I often confuse the two. There's also the issue of the "power" child. Who exhibits shitty behaviour because school/that situation is the only place they are able to take control of their lives. Can be very negative for other children, but again, once you know why they're doing it, you can work around it.

            Dreiukers Goals of Misbehaviour I think it is.
            ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

            RIP

            I have never been across the way
            Seen the desert and the birds
            You cut your hair short
            Like a shush to an insult
            The world had been yelling
            Since the day you were born
            Revolting with anger
            While it smiled like it was cute
            That everything was shit.

            - J. Wylder

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