Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Fishtanks and Nature.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Fishtanks and Nature.

    France's petition to prohibit spherical fish tanks

    So this is a petition that started here in France to prohibit small spherical fish tanks. Gold fish are not small by nature, but they stop from growing if they are enclosed in small volumes of water.

    Short story long, while I do agree with the petition in a general sense that they should ban small fish tanks for goldfish or other naturally medium sized fish, there's a paragraph in the explanation of the petition that kinda gets on my nerves. It roughly translates to this:

    Let's not forget that every living being has its place and role in our planet, not respecting a plant or animal species is the same as not respecting the nature that created us.
    I signed the petition, but I wrote a comment and mail to the petitioner with the following:

    We are also part of nature, and our actions are in alignment with natural law. This moralist unfounded crap should already have been eradicated long ago. Nature's creations cannot be disrespected through destruction or harm since nature itself devises creations to destruct and harm other creations. I conclude that because of this fact there is no moral foundation that would allow one to say that the human race does not respect nature through its actions in any way.
    (Yes, I have strong feelings regarding nature's nature.)

    What do you think? No, not about the petition, but about the conception of nature? Do you agree with them? For me nothing can be unnatural, since I see nature as an universal thing, that encompasses all through natural law (physics, chemistry, biology, geology, astronomy, etc.).

    Check out my blog! The Daily Satanist

    #2
    Re: Fishtanks and Nature.

    It's an argument I've heard over and over, that were part of nature so our actions are natural. I don't buy it. Our ability to recognise the harm we cause is also natural, our ability to choose NOT to destroy the world we rely on is also natural. Whether or not we act on our ability to give a sh*t is up to us of course, and most people choose immediate gratification over long-term pay off, the so-called 'Present Focus Bias' (its one of those errors of cognition I've recently blogged about, and is also why I decided to override this bias and stick the few thousand pounds I've managed to scrape together into an ISA; I'm out of pocket now, but 5 years from now I'll be laughing!)

    Put bacteria in a petri dish and they'll multiply until all the agar is gone. When there is no food left they will die leaving an empty petri dish. What separates us from the bacteria is the nature-given gift of realising what we're doing before it's too late. Again, most humans let their 'system one' do the thinking for them, so are distracted by 'ooh look, a shiny thing....' It's kinda cute that they're able to build an argument to support their short-sightedness. Anything to save us from taking responsibility for anything, right?
    夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

    Comment


      #3
      I am very certain that gold fish don't grow to the size of their tanks... they just have stunted growth...
      ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

      RIP

      I have never been across the way
      Seen the desert and the birds
      You cut your hair short
      Like a shush to an insult
      The world had been yelling
      Since the day you were born
      Revolting with anger
      While it smiled like it was cute
      That everything was shit.

      - J. Wylder

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Fishtanks and Nature.

        Originally posted by Heka View Post
        I am very certain that gold fish don't grow to the size of their tanks... they just have stunted growth...
        I got a new tank back in November. I wanted another goldfish but JP wouldn't me. He wanted to see how big they'd grow now they have more space. I'll keep you posted on the experiment!
        夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Fishtanks and Nature.

          Originally posted by SeanRave View Post
          What do you think? No, not about the petition, but about the conception of nature? Do you agree with them? For me nothing can be unnatural, since I see nature as an universal thing, that encompasses all through natural law (physics, chemistry, biology, geology, astronomy, etc.).
          Logistic problem - if every thing is part of nature, then humans keeping big fish in small bowls is as natural as a shark eating a dolphin.

          This concurs with what you've said, which is why I hate arguments about humans behaving unnaturally.

          I would prefer an argument that says "humans understand suffering, they dislike it, therefore they should not inflict suffering on others, knowing that others dislike it as well."

          A foundation of natural law (or God, for that matter) isn't necessary to acquire a sense of morality.

          What is required is the quality of empathy.
          Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Fishtanks and Nature.

            Originally posted by Jembru View Post
            I got a new tank back in November. I wanted another goldfish but JP wouldn't me. He wanted to see how big they'd grow now they have more space. I'll keep you posted on the experiment!
            Goldfish are a type of coy, they can get pretty big.

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Fishtanks and Nature.

              Originally posted by Ula View Post
              Goldfish are a type of coy, they can get pretty big.
              I concur with this. Many moons ago, we had a very large fish tank with several goldfish, and they got to be a pretty big size. Question: Do sucker fish follow the same rule as goldfish? Because ours got HUGE! (Fun fact: Apparently they are a type of catfish, which I did not know until recently. How cool is that?)

              As for Sean's question:
              I sometimes battle with the morality of keeping cats and dogs as pets. Yes, today they are domesticated but most would probably struggle and/or die if left to fend for themselves in nature. Strays that become feral would have better odds of making. We like having pets for companionship, which is a natural want for Humans but does that make keeping pets a natural thing? For that matter, are livestock on Farms natural, then?

              What it boils down to, for me, is if there are animals needing a good home and I can provide food and shelter for them, I will do so and I will try to make their life as comfortable as I possibly can. For fish, that means having a tank large enough so they have plenty of space to swim, places to hide and design it so that they have a sustainable ecosystem (our Hexagonal shaped tank had an amazingly balanced ecosystem). I think spherical shaped tanks are cruel and don't think they should be used for live animals anyway.
              �Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted. And experience is often the most valuable thing you have to offer.�
              ― Randy Pausch, The Last Lecture
              Sneak Attack
              Avatar picture by the wonderful and talented TJSGrimm.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Fishtanks and Nature.

                The whole idea might become the belief that humans should NOT have Zoo's or Circus' or any caged animals. It is a complaint from PETA.

                see here.

                There is the belief we harm animals by taking them from their natural environment,and exhibit them. Was one thing that got the Killer Whales parks in trouble.

                It might seem a bit extreme to some,but the animal rights groups are gaining a lot of media attention.
                MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                sigpic

                my new page here,let me know what you think.


                nothing but the shadow of what was

                witchvox
                http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Fishtanks and Nature.

                  I have quite a bit to say on this subject...but...I also have a paper to get written and can't afford any more procrastination.

                  I SHALL RETURN!
                  Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                  sigpic

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Fishtanks and Nature.

                    I await your return with that "quit a bit to say..."
                    MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                    all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                    NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                    don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                    sigpic

                    my new page here,let me know what you think.


                    nothing but the shadow of what was

                    witchvox
                    http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Fishtanks and Nature.

                      Originally posted by Jembru View Post
                      Put bacteria in a petri dish and they'll multiply until all the agar is gone. When there is no food left they will die leaving an empty petri dish. What separates us from the bacteria is the nature-given gift of realising what we're doing before it's too late. Again, most humans let their 'system one' do the thinking for them, so are distracted by 'ooh look, a shiny thing....' It's kinda cute that they're able to build an argument to support their short-sightedness. Anything to save us from taking responsibility for anything, right?
                      I can't agree with this analogy. By this logic no living being should be alive, because no animal actually thinks in long-term. The petri dish analogy is far from being correct since it doesn't include all other external elements, such as predators of the bacteria, and their food. And in case you're right, then we are just bacteria in a petri dish doomed to consume all resources and then die of starvation. Which giving it a second thought, doesn't sound so unnatural.

                      The choice to think short-term and not taking responsibility is also natural then, and not immoral.

                      Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                      Logistic problem - if every thing is part of nature, then humans keeping big fish in small bowls is as natural as a shark eating a dolphin.

                      This concurs with what you've said, which is why I hate arguments about humans behaving unnaturally.

                      I would prefer an argument that says "humans understand suffering, they dislike it, therefore they should not inflict suffering on others, knowing that others dislike it as well."

                      A foundation of natural law (or God, for that matter) isn't necessary to acquire a sense of morality.

                      What is required is the quality of empathy.
                      I agree. But not everyone (I don't) have much empathy for animals. I have enough to sign the petition, because heck why not give them a better life to the fishies, and to top it spherical tanks are ugly anyway.

                      Originally posted by Juniper View Post
                      I concur with this. Many moons ago, we had a very large fish tank with several goldfish, and they got to be a pretty big size. Question: Do sucker fish follow the same rule as goldfish? Because ours got HUGE! (Fun fact: Apparently they are a type of catfish, which I did not know until recently. How cool is that?)

                      As for Sean's question:
                      I sometimes battle with the morality of keeping cats and dogs as pets. Yes, today they are domesticated but most would probably struggle and/or die if left to fend for themselves in nature. Strays that become feral would have better odds of making. We like having pets for companionship, which is a natural want for Humans but does that make keeping pets a natural thing? For that matter, are livestock on Farms natural, then?

                      What it boils down to, for me, is if there are animals needing a good home and I can provide food and shelter for them, I will do so and I will try to make their life as comfortable as I possibly can. For fish, that means having a tank large enough so they have plenty of space to swim, places to hide and design it so that they have a sustainable ecosystem (our Hexagonal shaped tank had an amazingly balanced ecosystem). I think spherical shaped tanks are cruel and don't think they should be used for live animals anyway.
                      I do believe livestock and farms are a natural happening. Some animals with symbiotic relationships do exist, and I think what we're doing is kind of the same.

                      Check out my blog! The Daily Satanist

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Fishtanks and Nature.

                        Originally posted by SeanRave View Post
                        I can't agree with this analogy. By this logic no living being should be alive, because no animal actually thinks in long-term.
                        Because they can't. We can. Species numbers DO decrease when natural resources run out, and extinctions happen every single day as we're in the 6th mass extinction since life began on earth. Some extinctions would have happened anyway but this mass extinction is entirely due to the activity of man and natural or not, we WILL destroy the planet if we don't destroy ourselves by then (I assume by your logic that the use of nuclear weapons and the actions of Islamic State are also perfectly natural and we should just let it be and wait to die).

                        I'm not going to argue with you. You're pretty convinced that your way is correct and we're all morons for not seeing the world like you do. You'd argue black is white to the end of time and quite frankly I have too much sh*t to do. In a weird way I've missed your obscure and infuriating views, but I've also just remembered why I always gave you a wide berth.
                        夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Fishtanks and Nature.

                          To argue that a thing is natural and, therefore, should not be prevented or interfered with makes the assumption that all natural things are "good."

                          Fire is natural, but if my hair catches fire, I'll try to put it out.

                          "Natural" makes a poor synonym for "good."

                          - - - Updated - - -

                          Originally posted by SeanRave View Post
                          I agree. But not everyone (I don't) have much empathy for animals. I have enough to sign the petition, because heck why not give them a better life to the fishies, and to top it spherical tanks are ugly anyway.
                          Yes. Not everybody has empathy. That's why we end up with laws.
                          Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Fishtanks and Nature.

                            Originally posted by Jembru View Post
                            I'm not going to argue with you. You're pretty convinced that your way is correct and we're all morons for not seeing the world like you do. You'd argue black is white to the end of time and quite frankly I have too much sh*t to do. In a weird way I've missed your obscure and infuriating views, but I've also just remembered why I always gave you a wide berth.
                            Hmm, that was a bit unnecessarily personal when you were only rebuking my opinion and not attacking me personally. I stand by the sentiment; debating this topic is a waste of my energy, but I apologise for getting nasty about it.
                            夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Fishtanks and Nature.

                              Originally posted by Jembru View Post
                              Because they can't. We can. Species numbers DO decrease when natural resources run out, and extinctions happen every single day as we're in the 6th mass extinction since life began on earth. Some extinctions would have happened anyway but this mass extinction is entirely due to the activity of man and natural or not, we WILL destroy the planet if we don't destroy ourselves by then (I assume by your logic that the use of nuclear weapons and the actions of Islamic State are also perfectly natural and we should just let it be and wait to die).
                              Choice is natural, that's what I've been trying to say all this time. Man does have the choice to do something in order to prevent it's own extinction, or not. All I'm saying is that it is incorrect to use some erroneous hypothetical natural behavior as moral leverage for a cause.

                              Originally posted by Jembru View Post
                              I'm not going to argue with you. You're pretty convinced that your way is correct and we're all morons for not seeing the world like you do. You'd argue black is white to the end of time and quite frankly I have too much sh*t to do. In a weird way I've missed your obscure and infuriating views, but I've also just remembered why I always gave you a wide berth.
                              This is kind of a compliment, for me.

                              Originally posted by Jembru View Post
                              Hmm, that was a bit unnecessarily personal when you were only rebuking my opinion and not attacking me personally. I stand by the sentiment; debating this topic is a waste of my energy, but I apologise for getting nasty about it.
                              Don't apologise. I debate with my brain but also A LOT with my heart, and I am pleased that this topic can spring intense personal thought-processes in its participants. I am glad you participated, you added your insight on it, and I'm convinced everyone here is grateful that you did.

                              Check out my blog! The Daily Satanist

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X