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Thread: Shadow Goverment

  1. #11
    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
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    Re: Shadow Goverment

    The libertarian ideal devalues human life to how much currency one possesses, it devalues social structures to what currency be wrung out of those that it forces to labor for it, and it devalues natural systems to how much currency can be extracted from it at the expense of future generations. And that doesn't absolve the other side of the coin from its own issues...the extreme left has its own catastrophic ideological failures as well...

    The economic system, as it sits now is unsustainable--its built on the idea of immediate reward vs. long-term survival, of infinite growth from finite resources, dependent on population growth in a ecosystem that has likely already exceeded carrying capacity or is darned close to it (and by carrying capacity, I'm not talking about food or water, but on all of the other resources we consume as a species and the waste we produce, which is a radical departure from all other species), and acquisitiveness-at-any-cost as a human ideal/value. The government, in some ways, reinforces this (the government is made of people, people are reflective of the society as a whole and the spectrum of its views and values (for better and worse), but also resists it. The problem is that its resistance is reactionary to problems that have become big enough that they are visible to the general public (and by then, often too late) rather than the people that study those systems in the first place. The other problem is that, once the problem has been dealt with, goldfish memory kicks in and people no longer think preventing the problem is important.

    Bureaucracy, for all that people complain about it, is actually a good thing in the long run (its why, ordinarily, nations last longer than companies and religious institutions (actual structured institutions) last longer than nations (their bureaucracy tends to be even less dependent on the vagaries of public opinion and they tend to be more invested in the long term survival of their systems). The fact that it takes a long time to do something drastic (sort of like evolution) is generally beneficial--it protects the system as a whole and the benefits derived from it from the capriciousness of human foibles and from the extremes of human behaviors. People (as a group) tend to be reactionary to change because people (as individuals) lack the ability to build large scale consensus because people (as a group) are irrational and people are irrational because (as individuals) their opinions are based upon individualized experiences rather than a global view of entire processes.
    Last edited by thalassa; 23 Jun 2017 at 04:55.
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
    ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

    Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible

  2. #12
    Live and learn anunitu's Avatar
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    Re: Shadow Goverment

    Took me a bit to digest that Thal,but it seems to me to be very insightful. Humans are,to be polite,very much concerned with their personal issues,and not very attuned to the larger social problems. Judgemental seems the order of the day,and even the term humane,to define caring about others,is in many ways just a buzz word. Many humans are not concerned with others welfare,except as it impacts theirs.
    MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

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    NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
    don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




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  3. #13
    Lord Contrarian Denarius's Avatar
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    Re: Shadow Goverment

    The problem with the view that "the inability to effect real reform is good" is that, yeah, it prevents us from breaking things too much... but it also prevents us from fixing things too much. Over time issues build up in the system faster than our capability to deal with it within the Overton Window, and it directly precludes dealing with fundamental issues at all.

    To use your evolution metaphor, the inability for the system to adapt to changing circumstances creates issues. This conflict is seen in nature with invasive species wreaking havoc in non-native environments and habitat loss leading to a creature's downfall.



    Personally, I strongly believe that the system is corrupt and leading us down a very dark path. It needs to be uprooted, even going back to square one is not sufficient... we need to go to square zero, or else we'd just end up right back here.

    Burn it down, salt the earth.
    Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

  4. #14
    Live and learn anunitu's Avatar
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    Re: Shadow Goverment

    One major problem I see is what is the economy,the concept of everything has a price. Because of the need to make money,we end up fighting when we do make a breakthrough as to who owns the concept. So progress is slowed to a crawl when we bind it into some litigation and it can not be used as a component in the beginning of yet another breakthrough. The economy,and the idea that we MUST own the intelligent ideas,and not use them to lift humanity out of the broken system we live within.

    We end up discovering things in different ways to avoid being sued. Even then you can be sued for being kinda sorta a tiny shadow of another idea. So we hold back our progress with legal battles,and I think perhaps a fear of actually making progress.

    We got to the moon,then just messed around and now we want to go to mars en mass because we have screwed this planet so bad.
    MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

    all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
    NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
    don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




    http://www.paganforum.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=186&dateline=1330020104

    my new page here,let me know what you think.


    nothing but the shadow of what was

  5. #15
    Supporter Hawkfeathers's Avatar
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    Re: Shadow Goverment

    The issue of people not caring about others is a self-fulfilling prophecy kind of deal. If you're pretty sure no one will help you, you have to look out for yourself first, and so on....

    Can you hear me, Major Tom? I think I love you.

  6. #16
    Live and learn anunitu's Avatar
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    Re: Shadow Goverment

    It is sad that the peace mongers get so little respect these days.

    And reminds me of this song.
    MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

    all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
    NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
    don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




    http://www.paganforum.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=186&dateline=1330020104

    my new page here,let me know what you think.


    nothing but the shadow of what was

  7. #17
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    Re: Shadow Goverment

    What the hell is so respectable about "peace mongers"? What is respectable about a belief that nothing should be opposed or fought for? What is so respectable about this centrist ideal that seeks to keep the status quo? The status quo is a justice system that serves as a modern day Jim Crow. The status quo is killing the environment. The status quo is war and military expansion. But, somehow if we all had some vague notion of "coming together in peace, love, and understanding" these problems would go away. I have no respect for the man who calls for "peace" when it comes to opposing injustice. Peace is just another word for consent.

  8. #18
    Live and learn anunitu's Avatar
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    Re: Shadow Goverment

    I think perhaps one does not fully understand the concept of peace. If we can only see a path that must be fought tooth and nail,then it explains why the US government fought so hard to control the native Americans,to isolate and demean them,in order to benefit the "superior" class. Why we have fought so many wars of aggression,or in the age of expansion and empire,countries came and forced backward countries to become our subjects.(As they said,for their own good) Understand those that seek peace have fought and died for that peace,but never attempted to become oppressors in the process. In Russia,those that promised a perfect society,deceived their people,and having taken power,would never give it up. It is not so much the ideal that failed,but the people who did not really care for the ideal ,but more for the drug of power,that has no escape for many.

    Peace is a moral high ground,above the human weakness of spirit.

    - - - Updated - - -

    This may explain why aggression is not the best path.


    Nebraska Democratic Official Caught On Tape Wishing Steve Scalise Dead
    The party removed volunteer Phil Montag from his co-chair position after his expletive-filled comments surfaced.


    Story here.

    Full of spit and vinegar,but it really shamed the Democrats,and allowed the opposite party to use it against Democrats.
    Last edited by anunitu; 24 Jun 2017 at 14:18.
    MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

    all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
    NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
    don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




    http://www.paganforum.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=186&dateline=1330020104

    my new page here,let me know what you think.


    nothing but the shadow of what was

  9. #19
    The Gaze of the Abyss B. de Corbin's Avatar
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    Re: Shadow Goverment

    People for whom violence is their go-to solution will always find recipients worthy of their gift. The only people justified in the use of violence are those who strongly resist using it.
    Those who have suffered understand suffering and therefore extend their hand.

    I can't do everything, but I can do something.

  10. #20
    Live and learn anunitu's Avatar
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    Re: Shadow Goverment

    Generally,anything achieved by force will end up also broken by another attempt to force compliance to an ideal even when many do not wish it.
    MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

    all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
    NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
    don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




    http://www.paganforum.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=186&dateline=1330020104

    my new page here,let me know what you think.


    nothing but the shadow of what was

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