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Thread: Is the Pope a Catholic? Nope - he's a heretic

  1. #11
    Kick Ass Little Crow Corvus's Avatar
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    Re: Is the Pope a Catholic? Nope - he's a heretic

    It's hardly the first time something of this nature has happened. Heresy accusations have been used a political tool for centuries. It just doesn't matter as much anymore. The church is, arguably, much more accountable for these sorts of things now too. If there was legitimate heresy, it would be investigated, but the Pope is knowledgeable and reasonably progressive. He isn't stupid and he is deeply religious. There's scriptural support for all his statements.
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  2. #12
    Silver Member Bartmanhomer's Avatar
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    Re: Is the Pope a Catholic? Nope - he's a heretic

    If they (The accusers) got some vaild evidence from the Pope rather than their word then they got something to support their statement. But in all honesty I don't think that nothing going to happen to the Pope.
    Last edited by Bartmanhomer; 30 Sep 2017 at 10:46.

  3. #13
    PF Ordo Hereticus MaskedOne's Avatar
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    Re: Is the Pope a Catholic? Nope - he's a heretic

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    If they (The accusers) got some vaild evidence from the Pope rather than their word then they got something to support their statement. But in all honesty I don't think that nothing going to happen to the Pope.
    They're sort of screwed either way.

    There is no mechanism for removing the pope from office.

    Also

    Heresy is probably harder than they think it is.

    And of course, the fun part of this.

    If the newest set of complaining Catholics goes full "Empty Seater" then they are schismatic and subject to self-imposed ex-communication

    And if anyone is looking at this thinking, "Wow, there's an absurd amount of articles of faith attached to the office of Pope..." then you would be right. The Catholic Church banks heavily on God keeping some degree of a leash on the Bishop of Rome and protecting him from any number of particularly unpleasant possibilities.
    "It is not simply enough to know the light…a Jedi must feel the tension between the two sides of the Force…in himself and in the universe."
    ―Thon

    "When to the Force you truly give yourself, all you do expresses the truth of who you are,"

    Yoda

    Yoda told stories, and ate, and cried, and laughed: and the Padawans saw that life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

    Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

    "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

    John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

    "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

    Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis



  4. #14
    Silver Member Bartmanhomer's Avatar
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    Re: Is the Pope a Catholic? Nope - he's a heretic

    Quote Originally Posted by MaskedOne View Post
    They're sort of screwed either way.

    There is no mechanism for removing the pope from office.

    Also

    Heresy is probably harder than they think it is.

    And of course, the fun part of this.

    If the newest set of complaining Catholics goes full "Empty Seater" then they are schismatic and subject to self-imposed ex-communication

    And if anyone is looking at this thinking, "Wow, there's an absurd amount of articles of faith attached to the office of Pope..." then you would be right. The Catholic Church banks heavily on God keeping some degree of a leash on the Bishop of Rome and protecting him from any number of particularly unpleasant possibilities.
    So basically they got nothing on the Pope.

  5. #15
    PF Ordo Hereticus MaskedOne's Avatar
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    Re: Is the Pope a Catholic? Nope - he's a heretic

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    So basically they got nothing on the Pope.
    Pretty much. There are roughly four ways that the Pope stops being Pope.

    1) He dies.

    2) He resigns.

    3) Heaven literally and vocally decrees that he must be removed.

    4) He goes so insane that the vast bulk of the Church unanimously says, "To hell with this. Either remove the Bishop of Rome or watch 98% of the Church renounces the Vatican." At which point, we discover whether the Church hierarchy prefers to change canon law or see the Church disappear.

    There is no formal procedure to remove a living Pope against his will. There are some deeply unethical and more than a bit illegal informal ways to remove a Pope against his will but the Swiss guard reserve the right to make their counter-argument with gunfire. So the various whiners have several choices

    1) Continue whining but accept that Francis remains the Bishop of Rome and Vicar of Christ on Earth.
    2) Reject Francis as a false Pope. This instantly makes them schismatics and excommunicates them by default because they have rejected the authority of the Church.
    3) Decide that the Church places an absurd amount of trust in Heaven's willingness to guide the Pope and simply leave the Catholic Church.
    4) A host of illegal options that all constitute some degree of rejecting the authority of the Church and thereby excommunicates them by default.

    I should point out that while various things can excommunicate one by default, Heaven doesn't generally inform the mortal Church of who is a schismatic. There isn't really any social penalty as long as they don't get caught.
    "It is not simply enough to know the light…a Jedi must feel the tension between the two sides of the Force…in himself and in the universe."
    ―Thon

    "When to the Force you truly give yourself, all you do expresses the truth of who you are,"

    Yoda

    Yoda told stories, and ate, and cried, and laughed: and the Padawans saw that life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

    Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

    "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

    John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

    "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

    Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis



  6. #16
    Silver Member Bartmanhomer's Avatar
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    Re: Is the Pope a Catholic? Nope - he's a heretic

    Quote Originally Posted by MaskedOne View Post
    Pretty much. There are roughly four ways that the Pope stops being Pope.

    1) He dies.

    2) He resigns.

    3) Heaven literally and vocally decrees that he must be removed.

    4) He goes so insane that the vast bulk of the Church unanimously says, "To hell with this. Either remove the Bishop of Rome or watch 98% of the Church renounces the Vatican." At which point, we discover whether the Church hierarchy prefers to change canon law or see the Church disappear.

    There is no formal procedure to remove a living Pope against his will. There are some deeply unethical and more than a bit illegal informal ways to remove a Pope against his will but the Swiss guard reserve the right to make their counter-argument with gunfire. So the various whiners have several choices

    1) Continue whining but accept that Francis remains the Bishop of Rome and Vicar of Christ on Earth.
    2) Reject Francis as a false Pope. This instantly makes them schismatics and excommunicates them by default because they have rejected the authority of the Church.
    3) Decide that the Church places an absurd amount of trust in Heaven's willingness to guide the Pope and simply leave the Catholic Church.
    4) A host of illegal options that all constitute some degree of rejecting the authority of the Church and thereby excommunicates them by default.

    I should point out that while various things can excommunicate one by default, Heaven doesn't generally inform the mortal Church of who is a schismatic. There isn't really any social penalty as long as they don't get caught.
    Wow that's really stinks.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MaskedOne View Post
    Pretty much. There are roughly four ways that the Pope stops being Pope.

    1) He dies.

    2) He resigns.

    3) Heaven literally and vocally decrees that he must be removed.

    4) He goes so insane that the vast bulk of the Church unanimously says, "To hell with this. Either remove the Bishop of Rome or watch 98% of the Church renounces the Vatican." At which point, we discover whether the Church hierarchy prefers to change canon law or see the Church disappear.

    There is no formal procedure to remove a living Pope against his will. There are some deeply unethical and more than a bit illegal informal ways to remove a Pope against his will but the Swiss guard reserve the right to make their counter-argument with gunfire. So the various whiners have several choices

    1) Continue whining but accept that Francis remains the Bishop of Rome and Vicar of Christ on Earth.
    2) Reject Francis as a false Pope. This instantly makes them schismatics and excommunicates them by default because they have rejected the authority of the Church.
    3) Decide that the Church places an absurd amount of trust in Heaven's willingness to guide the Pope and simply leave the Catholic Church.
    4) A host of illegal options that all constitute some degree of rejecting the authority of the Church and thereby excommunicates them by default.

    I should point out that while various things can excommunicate one by default, Heaven doesn't generally inform the mortal Church of who is a schismatic. There isn't really any social penalty as long as they don't get caught.
    Wow that's really stinks.

  7. #17
    PF Ordo Hereticus MaskedOne's Avatar
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    Re: Is the Pope a Catholic? Nope - he's a heretic

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Wow that's really stinks.
    Only if the internal workings of the Roman Catholic Church impact your life in some particular way. The planet is not exactly short on religious options and the RCC doesn't have the means (inclination may or may not be present) to go waging wars of conversion and destroying heresy with fire and sword. People who dislike the amount of trust that RCC puts in heaven to protect the office of the Pope are not obligated to stay Catholic. If you aren't Catholic then most of this is academic.

    Now if you want a scenario that is slightly less academic for non-Catholics (but only slightly), under current canon law, the Vatican is effectively screwed if a Pope goes comatose for an extended period. The only medical condition that currently frees the office of the Pope is death. The Vatican has no equivalent to the 25th Amendment to unseat someone medically incapable of action and there are a number of things that only the Pope has the authority to do*. The response of the Vatican if a Pope ends up in a prolonged coma or falls victim to certain kinds of mental illness will catch attention from a decent portion of the world.

    *The closest applicable piece of canon law to removing a medically impaired Pope would be the rules for removing a bishop since the Pope technically is a bishop. There's just one huge problem. The removal of a bishop requires the signature of the Pope...
    "It is not simply enough to know the light…a Jedi must feel the tension between the two sides of the Force…in himself and in the universe."
    ―Thon

    "When to the Force you truly give yourself, all you do expresses the truth of who you are,"

    Yoda

    Yoda told stories, and ate, and cried, and laughed: and the Padawans saw that life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

    Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

    "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

    John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

    "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

    Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis



  8. #18
    Silver Member Bartmanhomer's Avatar
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    Re: Is the Pope a Catholic? Nope - he's a heretic

    Quote Originally Posted by MaskedOne View Post
    Only if the internal workings of the Roman Catholic Church impact your life in some particular way. The planet is not exactly short on religious options and the RCC doesn't have the means (inclination may or may not be present) to go waging wars of conversion and destroying heresy with fire and sword. People who dislike the amount of trust that RCC puts in heaven to protect the office of the Pope are not obligated to stay Catholic. If you aren't Catholic then most of this is academic.

    Now if you want a scenario that is slightly less academic for non-Catholics (but only slightly), under current canon law, the Vatican is effectively screwed if a Pope goes comatose for an extended period. The only medical condition that currently frees the office of the Pope is death. The Vatican has no equivalent to the 25th Amendment to unseat someone medically incapable of action and there are a number of things that only the Pope has the authority to do*. The response of the Vatican if a Pope ends up in a prolonged coma or falls victim to certain kinds of mental illness will catch attention from a decent portion of the world.

    *The closest applicable piece of canon law to removing a medically impaired Pope would be the rules for removing a bishop since the Pope technically is a bishop. There's just one huge problem. The removal of a bishop requires the signature of the Pope...
    What if the Pope charged of sexual abuse. It happen to some Catholic priest. Can the Vatican remove the Pope for that?

  9. #19
    PF Ordo Hereticus MaskedOne's Avatar
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    Re: Is the Pope a Catholic? Nope - he's a heretic

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    What if the Pope charged of sexual abuse. It happen to some Catholic priest. Can the Vatican remove the Pope for that?
    From what I've seen of canon law? No. The Pope is not subject to recall by the Vatican at all. I imagine that if a Pope who is sufficiently depraved takes office somehow then canon law will change but the lead up to such an event will likely fracture the Church in a dramatic and unpleasant manner. It would cause a legal crisis in Vatican city and possibly a crisis of faith throughout Catholocism.
    "It is not simply enough to know the light…a Jedi must feel the tension between the two sides of the Force…in himself and in the universe."
    ―Thon

    "When to the Force you truly give yourself, all you do expresses the truth of who you are,"

    Yoda

    Yoda told stories, and ate, and cried, and laughed: and the Padawans saw that life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

    Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

    "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

    John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

    "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

    Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis



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