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  • Can science prove God doesn't exist?

    Theoretical physicist Sean Carroll explains why he believes that science will one day be able to prove God does not exist.

    Physicists argue that science will eventually explain everything about the universe, even how it started, leaving no grounds for belief in God.
    Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.


  • #2
    Re: Can science prove God doesn't exist?

    Well, really it is more about eliminating the "God of the gaps" than disproving God. Even if you can reach a complete, or near enough, understanding of the natural world... that does not imply an understanding of the supernatural. Rather from our understanding it would be impossible to do so, by definition.
    Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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    • #3
      Re: Can science prove God doesn't exist?

      Science doesn't deal in proofs, you want maths for that. Science deals with evidence and the balance of probabilities. Whether enough evidence will ever exist to 'definitively' declare god non-existent depends on the person and the definition of god.

      A god that is defined to intercede in the universe will be easy to observe. One that simply set all the parameters for whatever preceded the big bang and thereafter does nothing is impossible to observe, and always will be based on current understanding.

      As for the person - well, we still have people believing in a flat Earth even though they could commission a plane to fly high enough to see the curvature. Some people will continue to believe or dis-believe regardless of evidence.

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      • #4
        Re: Can science prove God doesn't exist?

        well first how are you gonna define what "god" is. but yeah science has been doing a good job for years proving that there is something a bit more to the unverse then just basic material building blocks..there is a logic and reason to how things are.

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        • #5
          Re: Can science prove God doesn't exist?

          God is beyond humans comprehension in my opinion. As heylel shalem said " define what god is". Humans have so many different views and definitions when it comes to god.

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          • #6
            Re: Can science prove God doesn't exist?

            Science isn't designed to prove a general/universal/infinite negative (it can, however, accumulate evidence of a specific, finite negative). For that matter, it doesn't "prove" anything in the affirmative either, it simply accumulates evidence that supports or disproves a hypothesis.

            To accumulate evidence that God does not exist, one would have to do the following

            --Define God--What it its substance? Where does it live? What actions does it take? How is it observable?
            --Design an experiment that looks for the existence of God according to those parameters.

            Even then, all this does is "prove" that God does not exist according to X definition at Y time in Z place.
            “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

            “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
            ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

            "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
            ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

            "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

            Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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            • #7
              Re: Can science prove God doesn't exist?

              Some theologies rely on mind-body dualism. If science can reduce all subjective experiences into mere neuronal firing in the brain then we can safely eliminate the gods of those theologies. On the contrary there are proofs which show that strong AI is impossible implying that human understanding (intuition) is something which cannot be simulated on an Universal Turing machine shifting the probability of existence in favor of these theologies or gods.

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              • #8
                Re: Can science prove God doesn't exist?

                Originally posted by saura View Post
                On the contrary there are proofs which show that strong AI is impossible implying that human understanding (intuition) is something which cannot be simulated on an Universal Turing machine shifting the probability of existence in favor of these theologies or gods.
                Where would I find these proofs?

                Have they been reviewed by a credible institution?
                "It is not simply enough to know the light…a Jedi must feel the tension between the two sides of the Force…in himself and in the universe."
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                Yoda told stories, and ate, and cried, and laughed: and the Padawans saw that life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


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                • #9
                  Re: Can science prove God doesn't exist?

                  Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                  --Design an experiment that looks for the existence of God according to those parameters.
                  While experimental data is preferable it is not always possible. The theory of evolution was accepted without any conclusive experiment, but rather observational data. And even now there isn't one definitive experiment biologists could point to - unlike physicists who can for instance point to the Michelson-Morley experiment which was the death knell for theories of ether. Same in medicine - epidemiology is nearly entirely observational rather than experimental.

                  I think evidence of god(s), for most given definitions, will not be experimental.

                  Originally posted by saura View Post
                  If science can reduce all subjective experiences into mere neuronal firing in the brain then we can safely eliminate the gods of those theologies.
                  I'm only familiar with Abrahamic faiths having mind-body dulaism - are they prominent in Pagan theologies too?

                  Given Abrahamic theologies developed well before Descartes developed a more thorough idea of dualism i suspect they would have little problem reverting to other ideas to maintain the existence of self separate form the body . You can always fall back on 'ahah, but god wants it to look like that and he can do anything he wants...' which fundamentalist Christians seem fond of today.

                  And why is it mere neuronal firing? That the universe can manifest in patterns in which consciousness arises is surely far more wondrous than some super being merely placing consciousness in some biological vessel.

                  Originally posted by saura View Post
                  On the contrary there are proofs which show that strong AI is impossible implying that human understanding (intuition) is something which cannot be simulated on an Universal Turing machine shifting the probability of existence in favour of these theologies or gods.
                  I too look forward to seeing these proofs. I wonder whether they will be logical proofs; just how Aristotle concluded that the moon must be perfectly spherical and heavy objects fall faster than light objects. His logic was sound.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Can science prove God doesn't exist?

                    Quote Originally Posted by saura View Post
                    If science can reduce all subjective experiences into mere neuronal firing in the brain then we can safely eliminate the gods of those theologies.

                    What this seems to imply to me that our "GODS" exist mainly as our concept of souls, your thoughts? Souls=GODS???
                    MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

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                    • #11
                      Re: Can science prove God doesn't exist?

                      Originally posted by anunitu View Post
                      Souls=GODS???
                      Is this not what the Hindus mean when they say the Atman is the Brahman?

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                      • #12
                        Re: Can science prove God doesn't exist?

                        Originally posted by prometheus View Post
                        While experimental data is preferable it is not always possible. The theory of evolution was accepted without any conclusive experiment, but rather observational data. And even now there isn't one definitive experiment biologists could point to - unlike physicists who can for instance point to the Michelson-Morley experiment which was the death knell for theories of ether. Same in medicine - epidemiology is nearly entirely observational rather than experimental.

                        I think evidence of god(s), for most given definitions, will not be experimental.

                        Evolution was not accepted as a theory for quite some time and was debated quite stridently for many years.

                        And yes, an observational study is an alternative to an experiment, however, I didn't say my suggestion was the *only* way to prove god does not exist...



                        <---is an actual scientist, IRL
                        “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

                        “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
                        ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

                        "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
                        ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

                        "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

                        Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                        sigpic

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Can science prove God doesn't exist?

                          Originally posted by thalassa View Post

                          <---is an actual scientist, IRL
                          Cool, so am I. Or training at least, doing my PhD. in Raman Spectroscopy, focusing on stochastic modelling to try to get useful biomedical info from it. More machine learning than i'd have liked, but that seems to be the direction of science.

                          You are the first pagan scientist i have met; i'd be very interested to hear how you balance what could be considered by others as two very different world views. I'd love to pick your brain about it, but maybe bot here as it might be off-topic. Or maybe i can ask you some god(s) related questions here?

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                          • #14
                            Re: Can science prove God doesn't exist?

                            Originally posted by prometheus View Post
                            Cool, so am I. Or training at least, doing my PhD. in Raman Spectroscopy, focusing on stochastic modelling to try to get useful biomedical info from it. More machine learning than i'd have liked, but that seems to be the direction of science.

                            You are the first pagan scientist i have met; i'd be very interested to hear how you balance what could be considered by others as two very different world views. I'd love to pick your brain about it, but maybe bot here as it might be off-topic. Or maybe i can ask you some god(s) related questions here?
                            I started a new thread (obviously)... :D So...sure! I'd be happy to answer any questions you have or discuss anything about the subject. I guess I should explain my background (both the science part and the pagan part...) My undergrad is in biology, with an emphasis on EEB (ecology, evolution, and behavior) and conservation
                            “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

                            “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
                            ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

                            "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
                            ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

                            "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

                            Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                            sigpic

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Can science prove God doesn't exist?

                              Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
                              Where would I find these proofs?
                              "Here is a summary of the new argument (this summary closely follows that given in Chalmers (1995: 3.2), as this is the clearest and most succinct formulation of the argument I know of): (1) suppose that “my reasoning powers are captured by some formal system F,” and, given this assumption, “consider the class of statements I can know to be true.” (2) Since I know that I am sound, F is sound, and so is F’, which is simply F plus the assumption (made in (1)) that I am F (incidentally, a sound formal system is one in which only valid arguments can be proven). But then (3) “I know that G(F’) is true, where this is the Gödel sentence of the system F’” (ibid). However, (4) Gödel’s first incompleteness theorem shows that F’ could not see that the Gödel sentence is true. Further, we can infer that (5) I am F’ (since F’ is merely F plus the assumption made in (1) that I am F), and we can also infer that I can see the truth of the Gödel sentence (and therefore given that we are F’, F’ can see the truth of the Gödel sentence). That is, (6) we have reached a contradiction (F’ can both see the truth of the Gödel sentence and cannot see the truth of the Gödel sentence). Therefore, (7) our initial assumption must be false, that is, F, or any formal system whatsoever, cannot capture my reasoning powers."

                              - The Lucas-Penrose Argument

                              Human understanding, especially mathematical understanding is something which can never ever be simulated on a Turing machine. Human beings have access to Plato's ideal world of numbers and mathematics is not an invention but just a mere discovery of what the creator has already invented.

                              Have they been reviewed by a credible institution?
                              There are counter arguments and rebuttals but Sir Roger Penrose has addressed all those criticisms in his various books and his ideas has to be taken seriously because he is quite a good mathematical physicist. The conclusion is Strong AI is impossible because a machine can never ever surpass the intuitive ability of human mathematicians to see the truth by going beyond a formal system.

                              - - - Updated - - -

                              Originally posted by prometheus View Post
                              I'm only familiar with Abrahamic faiths having mind-body dulaism - are they prominent in Pagan theologies too?

                              Given Abrahamic theologies developed well before Descartes developed a more thorough idea of dualism i suspect they would have little problem reverting to other ideas to maintain the existence of self separate form the body . You can always fall back on 'ahah, but god wants it to look like that and he can do anything he wants...' which fundamentalist Christians seem fond of today.
                              The whole Indian philosophy and their gods will collapse if brain and mind are not two different substances.

                              Differential hypotheses between Indian and Western psychology

                              The most important difference between the Indian and the Western approach seems to be about the existence of pure consciousness as postulated by the former. However, as far as “normal life” is concerned, ancient Indian psychology, especially as expressed in the systems of Nyāya and Vaiśeṣika have astonishingly parallel views with modern Western psychology (e.g., Raju, 1983; Sharma, 2003). But there are also some striking differences. For instance, in contemporary Western cognitive psychology, the relationship between brain and mind is seldom explicitly spelled out, but if one would press researchers to make a statement, most would probably resort to the view that cognitive processes co-vary with brain processes, and if pressed still harder, some might say that essentially brain processes produce cognitions and emotions (e.g., Damasio, 1999). The Indian view is just the opposite: the brain is used as an instrument by the mind (e.g., Raju, 1983).

                              Does the mind use the brain or is the reverse true? This is a very interesting question, which cannot easily be tested. One might, however, try to find evidence for whether mind exists independently from brain. If the brain is the basis for the mind, there should be no mind if the brain is dead. So a good starting point to examine the hypothesis might be to look for evidence on near-death experiences or on reincarnation (for some attempts do to so see Cook, Greyson & Stevenson, 1998; Stevenson, 1987).


                              http://www.ipi.org.in/texts/others/p...eier-ip-sm.php


                              I too look forward to seeing these proofs. I wonder whether they will be logical proofs; just how Aristotle concluded that the moon must be perfectly spherical and heavy objects fall faster than light objects. His logic was sound.
                              I have provided a proof in this post. See above. Penrose too is very sound.

                              - - - Updated - - -

                              Originally posted by anunitu View Post
                              Quote Originally Posted by saura View Post
                              If science can reduce all subjective experiences into mere neuronal firing in the brain then we can safely eliminate the gods of those theologies.

                              What this seems to imply to me that our "GODS" exist mainly as our concept of souls, your thoughts? Souls=GODS???
                              Gods are always anthropomorphic to me. Gods are beings just like us with whom we can converse with.

                              While souls are ineffable. See Anima Mundi or world soul.
                              Last edited by saura; 11 Sep 2018, 23:53.

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