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Thread: Platonic Realism

  1. #31
    The Gaze of the Abyss B. de Corbin's Avatar
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    Re: Platonic Realism

    Quote Originally Posted by saura View Post
    How do you explain the similar experiential insights by people from different cultures across varying timelines? Their revelations proves that an hierarchy exists and people who have gone on that route were never disappointed because the Platonic realm indeed exists.
    Well, without any additional information, I would select the following hypotheses:

    1. Cultural diffusion/transmission

    2. Human brains working the way human brains do

    3. Cherry picking data (counting the hits and ignoring the misses)

    4. Perception of reality.

    Then, I would have to figure out which of these I could prove wrong. If any remain, that one is tentatively true.

    You seem to be saying that only #4 can be correct, so I am not sure if you have done the rest of the work...

    Just to point out - the quote from Dr. Wallace you use to close out your post is clearly referring to cultural diffusion (#1 on my list).
    Those who have suffered understand suffering and therefore extend their hand.

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  2. #32
    Member saura's Avatar
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    Re: Platonic Realism

    Quote Originally Posted by B. de Corbin View Post
    Well, without any additional information, I would select the following hypotheses:

    1. Cultural diffusion/transmission

    2. Human brains working the way human brains do

    3. Cherry picking data (counting the hits and ignoring the misses)

    4. Perception of reality.

    Then, I would have to figure out which of these I could prove wrong. If any remain, that one is tentatively true.

    You seem to be saying that only #4 can be correct, so I am not sure if you have done the rest of the work...

    Just to point out - the quote from Dr. Wallace you use to close out your post is clearly referring to cultural diffusion (#1 on my list).

    I am not the only one who has thought about this. Many scholars in the past have analyzed this problem and have come to the conclusion that mere cultural diffusion does not account for this problem.

    Valentinian Gnosticism and Classical Sāṃkhya: A Thematic and Structural Comparison


    Paul and Julian believed in something and they died for what they believed. Both of them were not crazy people to die for ideas which came from cultural diffusion unless they had divine revelation about something.

  3. #33
    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
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    Re: Platonic Realism

    Quote Originally Posted by saura View Post
    How do you explain the similar experiential insights by people from different cultures across varying timelines?
    Biology

    Their revelations proves that an hierarchy exists and people who have gone on that route were never disappointed because the Platonic realm indeed exists.
    There's no such thing as proof in science.
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
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    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

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  4. #34
    Member saura's Avatar
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    Re: Platonic Realism

    Quote Originally Posted by thalassa View Post
    Biology

    There's no such thing as proof in science.
    At this moment biology does not even understand how consciousness works and grandiose claims likes that requires evidence to backup.

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    Re: Platonic Realism

    Quote Originally Posted by saura View Post
    At this moment biology does not even understand how consciousness works and grandiose claims likes that requires evidence to backup.
    That there is no such thing as proof in science is a Grandiose claim?

    And you need evidence that humans share a common biology?

  6. #36
    The Gaze of the Abyss B. de Corbin's Avatar
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    Re: Platonic Realism

    Quote Originally Posted by saura View Post
    I am not the only one who has thought about this. Many scholars in the past have analyzed this problem and have come to the conclusion that mere cultural diffusion does not account for this problem.
    Irrelevant. Argument from authority ("scholars"), especially when different authorities give different responses, is not proof - argument from authority (argumentum ad verecundiam) is a logical fallacy.

    Paul and Julian believed in something and they died for what they believed. Both of them were not crazy people to die for ideas which came from cultural diffusion unless they had divine revelation about something.
    I'm going to go with Neitzsche (from The Anti-Christ) on this one:
    “The deaths of the martyrs, it may be said in passing, have been misfortunes of history: they have misled… The conclusion that all idiots, women and plebeians come to, that there must be something in a cause for which any one goes to his death (or which, as under primitive Christianity, sets off epidemics of death-seeking)—this conclusion has been an unspeakable drag upon the testing of facts, upon the whole spirit of inquiry and investigation. The martyrs have damaged the truth… Even to this day the crude fact of persecution is enough to give an honorable name to the most empty sort of sectarianism.— But why? Is the worth of a cause altered by the fact that some one had laid down his life for it?—An error that becomes honorable is simply an error that has acquired one seductive charm the more...”
    Since there is a looooong history of people willing to die for stupid reasons, the mere willingness to die for an idea can not be taken as evidence of truth.

    One can't argue that a martyr's death proves anything, other than that some people are willing to die for a belief or idea. That belief or idea may or may not be true - the truth of it must be proved using evidence...

    ...or, at least, without the use of obvious blablabla.
    Those who have suffered understand suffering and therefore extend their hand.

    I can't do everything, but I can do something.

  7. #37
    God in the baking Sean R. R.'s Avatar
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    Re: Platonic Realism

    Quote Originally Posted by B. de Corbin View Post
    One can't argue that a martyr's death proves anything, other than that some people are willing to die for a belief or idea.
    What if the idea is that pizza is the king of food?

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  8. #38
    The Gaze of the Abyss B. de Corbin's Avatar
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    Re: Platonic Realism

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanRave View Post
    What if the idea is that pizza is the king of food?
    An idea worth dying for, although most people know that the avocado is the king of food. The pizza is actually just "The King."
    Those who have suffered understand suffering and therefore extend their hand.

    I can't do everything, but I can do something.

  9. #39
    PF God-Empress Juniper's Avatar
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    Re: Platonic Realism

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanRave View Post
    What if the idea is that pizza is the king of food?
    Not my king!!!

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