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    The Battle For The Word Pagan

    Yes, I may anger many people with what I say in this thread, but this is not a battle specific to this forum; so, please do not take it personally.

    There is a resurgence of interest in Paganism in the world. For example, the Pagan community in Greece is growing daily as the religion was un-banned in 2017 (I still can't post links, sorry).

    These obviously are people trying to revive an ancient form of worship/devotion.

    On the other extreme, there is a new religious movement being formed called technopaganism (see Wikipedia).

    We need to discuss whether these two are compatible. If they are not compatible, there will be a war (again not confined to this forum)
    over who can actually label themselves as Pagan/pagan.

    The convention of UPPERCASE/lowercase that you have come up with in this website is not sufficient as it does not cover the spoken/verbal word nor does it account for the fact that most languages don't even have case - nor does it take any etymological considerations into account (i.e. the word actually has a meaning in Latin).

    Also, I'm not going to be fast at responding. This thread may take a couple of weeks to complete.
    Last edited by WyvernWorship; 21 Aug 2018, 16:24.

    #2
    Re: The Battle For The Word Pagan

    A pagan is a person who says "I'm a pagan," and believes it.

    So, I guess you ask them if they are pagan or not, and trust them not to lie.
    Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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      #3
      Re: The Battle For The Word Pagan

      There's always been discourse over who can call themselves <insert term>. There has always been people seeking identities and definitions and communities, and there has always been arguments over where those lines are. And it always ebbs and flows depending on access to information.

      On the other extreme, there is a new religious movement being formed called technopaganism (see Wikipedia).
      Jenny Calendar from the show Buffy the Vampire Slayer used the term technopagan, so it's not super new. Also, I fail to see why it would cause a war, it's almost like animism (based on the wiki page).
      ~Rudyard Kipling, The Cat Who Walks By Himself

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        #4
        Re: The Battle For The Word Pagan

        Wait there is a convention here on the usage of Pagan/pagan? Man I'm so out of the loop.

        Anyhow, there is no battle, for there is no authority, no repercussions, and no consensus. And even if consensus is established, by whom it will be upheld? The state? Not in a secular country. Independent institutions? How will they legitimately regulate the people who want (and will) use this label as they please?

        Check out my blog! The Daily Satanist

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          #5
          Re: The Battle For The Word Pagan

          hay,you can't just go around saying the "P"word,like using the "N WORD"

          what you talking bout "willis"?

          Last edited by anunitu; 21 Aug 2018, 17:26.
          MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

          all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
          NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
          don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




          sigpic

          my new page here,let me know what you think.


          nothing but the shadow of what was

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          http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

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            #6
            Re: The Battle For The Word Pagan

            Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
            A pagan is a person who says "I'm a pagan," and believes it.

            So, I guess you ask them if they are pagan or not, and trust them not to lie.
            What if a group is taking violent action or threatening (verbally) to take violent action against the vast majority of Pagans, should we allow them to call themselves "Pagan-friendly"?

            There is such a group calling itself pagan - so, I'm not making this up. What if this group wants to obliterate the natural environment that some of us *worship*; should we allow them to continue to call themselves "pagan-friendly"?

            Yes, Pagans are friendly and allow other groups to take shelter under the umbrella term, but shouldn't we draw the line if they try to hijack our religion in an attempt to turn it into something it's not.

            If the Pagan religion does not exist in your mind, then explain how it was recently legislated as permissible again (in 2017) using the name Paganism in Greece.

            The headline reads:

            Greek State Recognizes Paganism as Religion | GreekReporter.com

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              #7
              Re: The Battle For The Word Pagan

              My version of paganism isn't a religion.


              Mostly art.

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                #8
                Re: The Battle For The Word Pagan

                The Hellene nation didn't recognize "Paganism" as a state religion it recognize Hellene Polytheism or Hellenismos as a religion. Hellenism is not Paganism, it's basically Recon Hellenism of the old Hellene Cultus system of Hellene gods & Goddesses. By recognition it gives them the right among others things to legally build temples and own land. Falling into the same recognition pattern that some Northern practices got a few years ago by name but not making them Heathen or Pagan either.

                So while Paganism might have practices that utilize the Olympian Pantheon such usage does not make it Hellenismos or Recon in its practice.

                That's part of the battle your inferring about between one group claiming "pagan" while insisting another not using it. Nearly the same battle that used to go down between the "Pagan" and "Heathen" groups. At one point even with the suggested usage of Paleo-Paganism, Neo-Paganism and Meso-Paganism as defined by Isaac Bonewits. That or the insistence a number of years ago that all the practices aligned to Med influences be called paganism and all the practices and all the Northern European influenced be called Heathen / Teutonic and those of central Europe be called Celtic. Then Eastern Europe be given Slavic labels. But I stopped hearing about that probably by the mid 2000's at the latest I think it was.
                I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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                  #9
                  Re: The Battle For The Word Pagan

                  Originally posted by WyvernWorship View Post
                  What if a group is taking violent action or threatening (verbally) to take violent action against the vast majority of Pagans, should we allow them to call themselves "Pagan-friendly"?

                  There is such a group calling itself pagan - so, I'm not making this up. What if this group wants to obliterate the natural environment that some of us *worship*; should we allow them to continue to call themselves "pagan-friendly"?

                  Yes, Pagans are friendly and allow other groups to take shelter under the umbrella term, but shouldn't we draw the line if they try to hijack our religion in an attempt to turn it into something it's not.
                  You can't prevent them from using the term pagan. It's the same thing with radical/terrorist Islam. An umbrella term isn't a shelter either, since it isn't because you're under the name of a path that it actually gives you diplomatic immunity or whatever. It is simply not possible for a minority of radicals to hijack a whole religion (and paganism in and of itself isn't a religion anyway it's, as you said, an umbrella term).

                  Check out my blog! The Daily Satanist

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                    #10
                    Re: The Battle For The Word Pagan

                    The term "paganism" was revived during the Renaissance when writers were trying to differentiate the old traditions from their contemporary Christian faith. The term itself stems from the Latin paganus translated loosely along the lines of "country dweller" or "rustic"; thus it was initially a word describing a person of locality rather than a religion. However, because of its usage in ancient texts, medieval authors mistakenly believed it referenced a religious sect and thereby gave it the corresponding connotation. In actuality, there was a different word used to describe the "pagans" as they are called today, and that word too stemmed first and foremost from the location of the religious supporters.

                    from here.
                    Last edited by anunitu; 22 Aug 2018, 00:03.
                    MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                    all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                    NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                    don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                    sigpic

                    my new page here,let me know what you think.


                    nothing but the shadow of what was

                    witchvox
                    http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

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                      #11
                      Re: The Battle For The Word Pagan

                      'When Ican make words mean different things.'

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                        #12
                        Re: The Battle For The Word Pagan

                        Originally posted by DavidMcCann View Post
                        The one thing that all dictionaries and reference books agree on is that paganism is a religion. If you tell people that you are a pagan they will assume that's your religion, so saying it when you're actually an atheist is compounding confusion!
                        From the Oxford Dictionary: "Paganism: A religion other than one of the main world religions, specifically a non-Christian or pre-Christian religion."

                        So we are still on an umbrella term, and an atheist can be religious, so the confusion is not to blame on the usage of the term but in the assumption that paganism is a specific religion, which is not.

                        Check out my blog! The Daily Satanist

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                          #13
                          Re: The Battle For The Word Pagan

                          I view paganism as a term much like witch, if you say you're one, you are one!

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                            #14
                            Re: The Battle For The Word Pagan

                            Originally posted by SeanRave View Post
                            From the Oxford Dictionary: "Paganism: A religion other than one of the main world religions, specifically a non-Christian or pre-Christian religion."
                            So we are still on an umbrella term, and an atheist can be religious, so the confusion is not to blame on the usage of the term but in the assumption that paganism is a specific religion, which is not.
                            Not quite as "umbrella" as one might think, surely. After all, the pagan "religions" in the OED sense basically differ in their pantheons rather than in their underlying assumptions. That's why the languages of those that practice them have no word for religion. I remember the question being asked in a Hindu forum "Are we pagan?" The American members (thinking "Pagan") mostly said "It depends on what you mean by pagan" while the Indians (thinking "pagan") mostly said "Of course we are". The point made was that being a Hindu would not preclude worshiping in a Shinto shrine in the way that being a Muslim would preclude attending a Christian church.

                            As for atheists being religious, how would they set about doing it?

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                              #15
                              Re: The Battle For The Word Pagan

                              Originally posted by DavidMcCann View Post
                              Not quite as "umbrella" as one might think, surely. After all, the pagan "religions" in the OED sense basically differ in their pantheons rather than in their underlying assumptions. That's why the languages of those that practice them have no word for religion. I remember the question being asked in a Hindu forum "Are we pagan?" The American members (thinking "Pagan") mostly said "It depends on what you mean by pagan" while the Indians (thinking "pagan") mostly said "Of course we are". The point made was that being a Hindu would not preclude worshiping in a Shinto shrine in the way that being a Muslim would preclude attending a Christian church.

                              As for atheists being religious, how would they set about doing it?
                              I still don't get the difference between Pagan and pagan, for there is no written consensus anywhere to be found for me they are the one and the same, as per the Oxford dictionary, which is in some way a consensus.

                              As for atheist religiousness, look at LaVeyan Satanism or any other archetypal atheism.

                              Check out my blog! The Daily Satanist

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