any luciferians out there?

[heylel shalem]

It's a different take on the same issue, that issue being what our relationship to the divine is. Is the mundane here to serve as a trial for the divine to come? Are we servers to the divine? Or is it the opposite? Is the divine an opportunity to make the mundane better? Is the divine a mere tool of the mundane?

I really like this explanation. I think that LHP is definately a lot more hands on and involved process of understanding what "divinity" and "divine forces" are..you know instead of having your path dictated to you its more of a visceral experience where if successful you learn ...to me anyways..a more revelatory experience. I myself am not hardwired towards conformity and have tried more "traditional" forms of magick like of course aleister crowelys system and the golden dawn..but i found the structure to be too limiting..and on the opposite side of the spectrum i found things like chaos magick to be far too loose and liberal.. kinda reminds me of the political wings left and right though i am very far left when it comes to political issues...one thing I found in crowely that i liked a lot was his drive to push past taboos and push envelopes..i think thats why he got kicked out of the golden dawn because he really was good at mastering a great deal of magickal systems and incorporating to them all but he always put his own spin on it and was not apparently reverential enough about the "paths" that were laid out for him by said magickal orders. But i mean I guess i was kinda ignorant or naive to the fact that within magick their can be just as much of a sort of stuffy conservatism ironically like most religions..which even in most religions they have their sort of "anarchistic" sects for those who can't just easily buy into dogma and/or ritual without first you know diving in and testing it.

I guess i never really put a great deal of thought in trying to pin a definition on what LHP means to me I guess i kinda pulled my own from the ether so to speak. words like contrarian and individualist come to mind, because it tends to have a sort of self centric vibe to it. RHP to me really downplays the need to empower the self. and please correct me if im wrong but I find it to be far too rigid to me. I am a rabid lone wolf. i like to make my own rules and follow my own will, i dont like to be told what to do and I dont generally just accept and digest anything just because others subscribe to it.

i found this description of left hand path on wikipedia and it seems to be very vauge. still trying to find some sort of thing online that might give a bit more comprehensive explanation..i know its out there lol.

Left-Hand Path[edit]

The historian Dave Evans studied self-professed followers of the Left-Hand Path in the early 21st century, making several observations about their practices:

• They often reject societal convention and the status quo, which some suggest is in a search for spiritual freedom. As a part of this, LHP followers embrace magical techniques that would traditionally be viewed astaboo, for instance using sex magic or embracing Satanic imagery.^[1]:197 As Mogg Morgan wrote, the "breaking of taboos makes magic more potent and can lead to reintegration and liberation, [for example] the eating of meat in a vegetarian community can have the same liberating effect as anal intercourse in a sexually inhibited straight society."^[5]
• They often question religious or moral dogma, instead adhering to forms of personal anarchism.^[1]:198
• They often embrace sexuality and incorporate it into magical ritual.^[1]:205

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I think I might understand from this,being brought up SDA,it was always "your personal Jesus" thing where "HE" is always at your beck and call,where as it was pointed out to me,other christian groups see Jesus or God as only to be served,and your own personal needs as not their problem,this was told to me by a person with the other perspective about gods. am I close here?

this is very close to how i view lucifer. Yes, he is a sort of archetype to emulate but he is also a force to call on. i mean i am no literalist but the metaphor becomes a very powerful veicle to power ones implementation of will (in the croweleyan sense). I myself dont understand when religion only seems to have more of a one side relationship. God always asking what we can do for him. give him our minds, our hearts, our money, our children all kind of add up to me as giving up the core of who we are to conform to this egotistical master who gets to dictate the rules no matter how unfair and does'nt even bother to explain to us the reasoning behind it..maybe this is my sort of jaded teenager coming out but I spent a great deal of my youth until i was 23 years old stuck in that world of fundamentalism...as a natural born cynic this was very hard to me. I once was allowed to preach in church once when i was younger (imagine that) and i ended up really pissing off a lot of people because i kinda sort of half mentioned that not only did jesus want to come and help us get what we want out of life he wanted to show us how we can be like him...I was a pariah at my fathers church for years lol..i mean how dare i say that anybody could become like jesus..lol.

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[Torey]

I wrote a somewhat lengthy article many years ago around my thoughts and observations on some of the differences between the Left and Right -Hand paths:


CONCEPT: The Self, The Person As An Individual.

• RIGHT HAND PATH: Typically regards the Self as spiritual in nature. However, a tendency exists to heavily separate concerns of the Ego from concerns of the True Will or Higher Self. Magick and acts for the purpose of self-attainment, self-gain and self-provision are generally viewed as indulgent, wasteful, selfish and in accordance with the desires of the Ego.

• LEFT HAND PATH: Typically regards the Self as worthy of worship and elevation. Concerns of the Ego and of the True Will are typically not separated, as they are regarded as one in the same. Magick and acts for the purpose of self-attainment, self-gain and self-provision are almost universally viewed as natural and are condoned and encouraged. The desires of the Ego are readily indulged in the belief that the Self is worthy of indulgence.

CONCEPT: The Divine, "God", Spirit

• RIGHT HAND PATH: Typically regards the Divine/God/Spirit as omniscient, transcendent and sentient. Relationships with a personal Deity are nurtured through worship, prayer and ritual. Divine guidance is sought for the understanding of the True Will. Divine aid is called upon in most common practices. The Ego is inferior to the Spirit or Higher Self and must be overcome for the soul to perfect itself through life experiences.

• ​​LEFT HAND PATH: Sometimes regards the Divine/God/Spirit as omniscient, transcendent and sentient. May be Atheistic in approach to Deity with a pronounced emphasis on the idea of the Self, the Ego, as Deity incarnate. May often view the Self, the Ego, as part of a greater Source of Spirit, co-existing with sentient godforms and entities (Deities) - however, typically regarding the Self, the Ego, the Human Spirit to be equal to or greater than other sentient godforms and entities (Deities).

CONCEPT: Ethics, Dogma, Codes of Behavior

• RIGHT HAND PATH: Typically observes some form of dogmatic 'moral code' or system of ethics wherein the individual is expected, to some degree, to abstain from those activities, acts, behaviors and magickal workings which indulge the Ego or the individual in favor of more altruistic approaches. Often regards acts of indulgence as abetting the wasteful desires of the imperfect Ego. Typically holds to rigid ideals and societal expectations.
  

• ​LEFT HAND PATH: Typically denounces most forms of dogmatic 'moral codes' or systems of ethics which suppress the individual and/or the Ego. Commonly favors those activities, acts, behaviors and magickal workings which promote and condone the indulgence of the Self, the Ego. Generally believes that there is 'no such thing as a selfless act'. Does not regard the desires of the Ego as wasteful and/or deviating from any 'True Will' as the Ego is typically believed to be the same as the True Will, Higher Self. May or may not disregard rigid ideals and societal expectations.

CONCEPT: Obedience to a Higher Power or Will

• RIGHT HAND PATH: Generally adheres to some sense of inferiority to Spirit, The Divine, God, Higher Will. May or may not observe an obedience to the 'Will of the Universe' or to a pre-destined 'fate'. May or may not regard Deity, Spirit as being more aware of what is 'best' for the individual and for mankind.
  

• ​LEFT HAND PATH: Generally rejects adherence to any sense of inferiority to Spirit, The Divine, God, Higher Will. Typically regards the Self as 'Godlike' or 'equal to God', thus being the supreme authority in regards to the needs of the individual and of mankind. Commonly rejects obedience to any Deity.

CONCEPT: Retribution and Karma

• RIGHT HAND PATH: Typically accepts some idea of Cosmic Justice, Karma, Karmic Retribution, Threefold Law as a Universal and supernatural means of Divine law and order. Additionally, may or may not believe in the concept of polar opposites of 'positive' and 'negative', 'good' and 'evil'.
  

• ​LEFT HAND PATH: May or may not adhere to the idea of Cosmic Justic, Karma, Karmic Retribution, Threefold Law as a Universal and supernatural means of Divine law and order, although, if adhering to the concept, regards it as exoteric. Typically does not adhere to any concept of polar opposites of 'positive' and 'negative', 'good' and 'evil'.

CONCEPT: Happiness and Spiritual Fulfillment

• RIGHT HAND PATH: Generally believes that happiness and spiritual perfection, fulfillment come from 'good' and/or altruistic deeds. May or may not believe that true salvation/happiness/spiritual fulfillment is only attainable through transcendence of the material plane.
  

• ​LEFT HAND PATH: Generally believes that happiness and spiritual perfection, fulfillment are solely the responsibility of the individual in each lifetime. Typically discards the belief in salvation by means of 'good' and/or altruistic deeds which result in spiritual reward.

CONCEPT: Material Wealth and Indulgence

• RIGHT HAND PATH: Typically believes that material wealth and indulgences are solely 'fodder' for the wasteful desires of the Ego. Generally conforms to the idea of the material plane as being a place of tests and hardships, a place to learn from and to eventually rise above.
  
• ​LEFT HAND PATH: Typically believes that material wealth and indulgences are necessary for the happiness and contentment of the individual, the Ego as the individual is responsible for his or her own happiness and spiritual reward. Generally rejects beliefs that the material plane is a place of tests and hardships, a place to learn from and eventually rise above, instead adhering to the idea that life is what the individual makes it - that mankind is the master of his own destiny

[DavidMcCann]

I wrote a somewhat lengthy article many years ago around my thoughts and observations on some of the differences between the Left and Right -Hand paths:

Interesting! I'm amused to see that, of your seven points, I agree with LHP in four and I'n neutral on three. Does that make me LHP? I suspect that many Heathen might get a similar result.

[Torey]

Interesting! I'm amused to see that, of your seven points, I agree with LHP in four and I'n neutral on three. Does that make me LHP? I suspect that many Heathen might get a similar result.

I think that it really illustrates the point that very few of us, regardless of path, are "one or the other", but are, instead, a blend of both.

[anunitu]

Who you calling a BLEND? well maybe just a little

[pragon]

I wouldn't say I am a Luciferian, but I did conduct some rituals in the past to Lucifer. I'm a bit two-sided when it comes to working with Lucifer. This could be because I used to be a very devoted Christian in my past. I am still having trouble getting over some of the fears of my past. For example: eternal torment and Satan at work to deceive the world. You can thank all the YouTube conspiracy videos for that. Some people say that Satan and Lucifer are two different beings. I really don't know. Once again, I am two-sided. I don't really know the origins. Maybe its metaphorical. It's different for everybody. Anyhow, I remember when I finally told the Holy Spirit to get lost. I said your the true evil one. Satan is good! I always thought I committed the unpardonable sin by doing so. I was told to study more. I did so. I read the bible and its quite amazing how one can read "Genesis" and automatically see how Satan or the devil is not the enemy. The serpent offered Eve wisdom and knowledge of good and evil. Everything God made, he saw as good. So how could the serpent conduct an evil act? Genesis 3:4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman.5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” Genesis 3:22 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” Become like us? Who is us? This sounds so wrong. The serpent was totally right! Here is the proof right here! Here is my favorite Genesis verse. It is Genesis 6:6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. God repented? What in the world is going on? Lol! Tell that one to the church. All this in just reading the first 6 chapters of Genesis. Anyhow, let me not get off topic. As far as Lucifer goes, I recently looked up the Egyptian God "Ptah". I wanted to conduct a ritual to him and was looking up how to do so. I came across a site that said he is Enki or Lucifer. He goes by many names and I was like what the! You mean to tell me that Ptah is Lucifer? I'm so confused. Can anyone help me out here. Thanks. I think the site was called Angelfire or something like that.

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I'm not sure why my essay seems written off, but here is the rest of what I wrote: “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman.5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” Genesis 3:22 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” Become like us? Who is us? This sounds so wrong. The serpent was totally right! Here is the proof right here! Here is my favorite Genesis verse. It is Genesis 6:6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. God repented? What in the world is going on? Lol! Tell that one to the church. All this in just reading the first 6 chapters of Genesis. Anyhow, let me not get off topic. As far as Lucifer goes, I recently looked up the Egyptian God "Ptah". I wanted to conduct a ritual to him and was looking up how to do so. I came across a site that said he is Enki or Lucifer. He goes by many names and I was like what the! You mean to tell me that Ptah is Lucifer? I'm so confused. Can anyone help me out here. Thanks. I think the site was called Angelfire or something like that.

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Is it because I copy and pasted? I didn't mean to steal anybodies work online. I just wanted to copy the bible verses and that is all. Sorry if I made a mistake.

[Prickly Pear]

I suspect it is because you copied and pasted a text that was not black on a white background. That doesn't work well with the themes most PF users use.

[Juniper]

Is it because I copy and pasted? I didn't mean to steal anybodies work online. I just wanted to copy the bible verses and that is all. Sorry if I made a mistake.

I edited the color out of your post. If you copy and paste, please review your post before submitting it, so that you can see when colors or fonts don't match up. Many of us use dark themes so reading copy/pasted material is difficult.

For future reference, always cite a source or sources for any copy/pasted or otherwise referenced material. Plagiarism - whether intended or not - is against forum rules and can result in being banned from the forum. We have a whole paragraph on this in our Forum Rules.

[Torey]

I came across a site that said he is Enki or Lucifer. He goes by many names and I was like what the! You mean to tell me that Ptah is Lucifer? I'm so confused. Can anyone help me out here. Thanks. I think the site was called Angelfire or something like that.

Those of a more syncretic or soft polytheist inclination will always postulate that one deity is equatable to another through all manner of "connections" (similar mythologies, similar names, names translated into different languages, Gematria, etc.). Personally, I don't believe that Ptah = "Lucifer" = Enk, etc., but I'm a hard polytheist...

[Sean R. R.]

Concerning your definition of LHP, Torey: Man I'm 100% LHP haha.

Sean the Edgy Lord, you may call me now.

Angelfire is not a site per se, but a hosting service, much like Wix, Wordpress or whatever.

Also its not impossible for Hard Polytheists to also equate certain deities with one another. For instance I believe Lucifer is one of several Satans.