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Thread: Humans should stop producing

  1. #11
    Kick Ass Little Crow Corvus's Avatar
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    Re: Humans should stop producing

    I believe this is called the voluntary extinction movement, where there is a group that believes humanity should move toward extinction by cessation of reproduction. Generally the reasoning is that humans have caused great environmental damage and there is a moral imperative to put ourselves down, the most humane way being to stop reproducing. There's some amount of validity to that line of reasoning but, your statement is inane and shows no depth of consideration.

    Honestly, I agree there should be more thought put into the care of children. Perhaps it is my perspective as a queer person who is much less likely to accidentally have children, but I have seen many cases where parents have just not been good parents. This isn't even to touch on the many children in the foster system or who otherwise lack formal permanent care. I don't believe that it's appropriate for the only qualification for parents to be the ability to have sex and produce biogenetic children. I've heard suggestion of mandatory parenting classes, tax penalizations or benefits for children or taking classes after having children, up to parenting licenses. This obviously presents ethical problems depending on how far one is willing to go and reproductive rights are not easily regulated in a practical or moral manner. I don't intend to be a parent, I don't think I would be good at it and other factors in my life make children less desirable for me. However, there are people who desperately do want to be parents and there are many who are and would be wonderful caretakers.

    I don't really know the answers but, the root of my dilemma is not throwing anger into the void over culture or the perceived harm of the government, it is actual concern for the quality of parenting. It is a desire to see future citizens be good and informed people and ensure an education and responsible populace capable of bringing that about. The argument which OP has presented is not an argument at all, nor does it appear to be informed, and this trend of random sweeping statements based on nothing productive will neither change opinion or facilitate debate in good conscious. It is my opinion that it is bad form to present a rant post as a debate subject.

    Let's address your "points" here. The world is populated enough: While this is, strictly speaking, an opinion the earth can support a far greater population with estimates of carrying capacity sitting around 10 billion, though past research has suggested as high as 13 billion provided the proper infrastructure and allocation of resources. Global population is rising, but only in select regions, principally areas of Asia and Africa. In most developed countries, population is sustained, declining, or growing at increasingly slow rates. Famously, Japan's population is plummeting but, similar trends can be seen across Europe and even in the US when examining select years.

    Population change is essentially a function of (births - deaths) + (in-migration - out-migration) which accounts for fertility, mortality, and migration. In most developed countries birth rate remains below the replacement level, meaning the number of deaths (generally from the elderly but also accidents, which is why replacement is always a positive integer) is exceeding the amount of births causing population decline. This is then adjusted for immigration, population increases if the net product of these numbers is positive and above the replacement level and decreases if it is not.

    So why the disparity between developed and undeveloped countries? It's a factor of relative wealth and technology. In developed countries there's greater access to birth control, more incentives to put off having children until later, economic and social barriers, as well as greater agency and mobility for women. In effect, women who are allowed greater reproductive control and resources have fewer children on average.

    Medicine is also much better in developed countries. Those of us in such places generally do not die of the same things people in less developed nations. For example, some principal causes of death in developed nations are cancer and cardiovascular disease- that is to say chronic degenerative disorders. Compare this to less developed countries where the top causes of death are generally infectious diseases. This is also a factor for infant mortality and there is an important gender breakdown, since if for some reason women have higher death rates there's an according change in birth rate. I had a graph here but, I'm going over the character limit with it so, let's just go on without it. We can surmise that birth and death rates both decrease with industrialization because, you know, people have medicine and things are cleaner. There's also a greater nutritional difference between these societies and quite simply people are having children for very different reasons. There's economic incentive toward children in low income countries compared to the cost of a child in a high income country. These points over the past paragraphs are the science behind the demographic transition theory, that population rises, then falls, before stabilizing, in accordance with levels of industrial development.

    The issue is not raw population growth but industrialization and exploitation. We can probably feed the entire world with current agricultural technology and it's only expected to improve . The issue is that much of this food goes to waste. Low income countries have had a history of economic and material exploitation which has destabilized and slowed their growth. We have little reason to think their populations will not also eventually decline or stabilize and it may in fact be beneficial to assist them through economic and technological agreements. Sectionalism between nations is perhaps the largest barrier toward good for the entirety of earth and humanity. There's enough stuff in general, people just need to allocate it properly and stop hoarding, on a social and individual level.

    OP's next point is that regulation, organization, and regulation is harmful, which is ridiculous. Surly, an overabundance of government control could limit liberty. However, the entire point of law is to limit freedom for the common good. We could discuss why social security is good , or how robust social programs make people and society better , but I'm a bit distracted over how names are harmful here. Obviously, the impact of the media is important and often can be harmful, so let's just remove all forms of culture since they condition behavior. To proclaim society as the source of all ills is simplistic. Humans require society, we are social beings, civilization is our greatest achievement and has facilitated advancement in all axis of human creation. Of course society is the source of social problems, it's the source of large scale social-ness.

    I think I've made my point clear on everything else OP has said. I believe these ill founded statements fueled by misplaced aggression are a prime source of continual social unrest. It's sweeping and pointing the figure in the wrong way. It makes things worse to be angry without anything to back it up, to shout into the void some misanthropic quip does nothing for good faith discussion.
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    Do you have 'that' which lies dormant within society? Who can overwrite it, the filth in the world?


  2. #12
    Live and learn anunitu's Avatar
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    Re: Humans should stop producing

    I was going to mention that Crow,but forgot.
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  3. #13
    Silver Member Bartmanhomer's Avatar
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    Re: Humans should stop producing

    Look some people want to have kids and some don't. It's called choices.

  4. #14
    Sr. Member Austin.Apollo's Avatar
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    Re: Humans should stop producing

    My personal opinion is we have to fight tooth and nail for the continued survival of our species.(At least thats my opinion at the moment. My opinions have been known to change frequently.) But on the other hand using artificial intelligence and cgi people in the future will be able to custom tailor personal relationships to their liking and have that perfect significant other but of course they wont be able to reproduce they would have to adopt or something. I'm assuming this is it how it will start and eventually 3d holograms and if you've got the money robots way in the future.

  5. #15
    Live and learn anunitu's Avatar
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    Re: Humans should stop producing

    i think not extinction,but more evolution into a greater species
    MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

    all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
    NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
    don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




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    my new page here,let me know what you think.


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  6. #16
    Indecisive Oshii's Avatar
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    Re: Humans should stop producing

    GATTACA is just around the corner. just sayin'
    In answer to the question of why it happened, I offer the modest proposal that our Universe is simply one of those things which happen from time to time. ~~ Edward P. Tryon

  7. #17

    Re: Humans should stop producing

    Quote Originally Posted by pragon View Post
    I'm not kidding. Why do people keep having children? The world is already populated as it is. The world is messed up with control/government. Why would anyone want to bring a kid in this world who has to get registered by the government as if they are owned... sure get them a social security number, name, and so forth. Let's become synthetic beings controlled by media and follow stupid society. Yep.... I would never want to bring my own child into a world to be forced into this bullshit.
    I feel your pain; in both regards. I too feel there are too many people on Earth; I remember within my own lifetime, (I'm twenty-four), that there were only six billion people. Now there's over seven and a half billion people; closer to eight billion actually; 7.7 billion to be precise; that's 7,700,000,000. That is just...mind-boggling haha. Why can't guys just keep it in their pants? There's a few reasons. 1.) Men and women are essentially programmed to reproduce; it's an instinct that many have not overcome. 2.) Sex is pleasurable for most people, (except me; I'm asexual, sex is gross to me haha). 3.) People want to leave a legacy behind; the most special one for most being a child. 4.) People want more tax deductions. 5.) People are selfish by nature, and don't often think on a global scale.

    In regards to the US Government, they pretty much ruined my life when I was a little kid because I threw a temper tantrum where no one got hurt and nothing got broken; I just happened to be in a public school that was located on a military missile defense base. As a result, I was locked up, and consequently beaten, raped, shanked, drugged, tortured, brainwashed and experimented on for the next five years until I was released just before turning eighteen. There are thousands and thousands of rules, laws and regulations in my country as well, so much so that it's impossible to follow them all, effectively branding everyone a criminal. It's just not just in my mind. That's why I'm planning on fleeing to the mountains to get away from it all. As populated as the Earth is though, it's just a matter of time before I end up bumping into somebody in the middle of nowhere who has deemed themselves fit to decide how I should live and what I should do with my life, hahaha.

    --Sollomyn
    Last edited by Sollomyn; 09 Mar 2019 at 04:51.

  8. #18
    God in the baking Sean R. R.'s Avatar
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    Re: Humans should stop producing

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollomyn View Post
    Why can't guys just keep it in their pants? There's a few reasons. 1.) Men and women are essentially programmed to reproduce; it's an instinct that many have not overcome. 2.) Sex is pleasurable for most people, (except me; I'm asexual, sex is gross to me haha). 3.) People want to leave a legacy behind; the most special one for most being a child. 4.) People want more tax deductions. 5.) People are selfish by nature, and don't often think on a global scale.
    I don't see a problem there.

    1) Why do you think that instinct needs to be suppressed? It's part of our humanity, and part of what makes us the human animal.
    2) Literally not a problem.
    3) I'm inclined to think this stems for reason n°1, the need for a legacy, especially in the form of a child, seems to scream "PASS DOWN THE GENES!" kind of instinct.
    4) Honestly most countries in the world don't offer any kind of tax deduction for having children... Unless you count child labor.
    5) Not a problem, I have a life of my own, I wasn't brought into this world to worry about everyone else.

    The earth is not overpopulated, it's mismanaged.

    I honestly want a population boom again, just to see what happens.

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  9. #19
    Supporter Hawkfeathers's Avatar
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    Re: Humans should stop producing

    I'm 100% pro-choice. My choice was always to not have kids, but most people's choice is to have them. As long as it's (in either case) what you really want, go for it.

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  10. #20

    Re: Humans should stop producing

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean R. R. View Post
    I don't see a problem there.

    1) Why do you think that instinct needs to be suppressed? It's part of our humanity, and part of what makes us the human animal.
    2) Literally not a problem.
    3) I'm inclined to think this stems for reason n°1, the need for a legacy, especially in the form of a child, seems to scream "PASS DOWN THE GENES!" kind of instinct.
    4) Honestly most countries in the world don't offer any kind of tax deduction for having children... Unless you count child labor.
    5) Not a problem, I have a life of my own, I wasn't brought into this world to worry about everyone else.

    The earth is not overpopulated, it's mismanaged.

    I honestly want a population boom again, just to see what happens.
    1) Whoever said that I thought instinct needs to be suppressed? I used the word "overcome". There's a difference. Gain mastery of your instincts, or surely they will master you. If we never controlled ourselves, and just ran on pure instinct, we would have gone extinct a long time ago.

    2) Whoever said that I thought sex being pleasureable was a problem? It's simply a factual contributing factor to the rapid population growth.

    3) I think it stems from the fear of death and a desire to be immortalized in some form, but you could be right about it also being related to the first reason; like most things in Nature, it's likely multi-faceted.

    4) I was referring to my own country in regards to tax deductions; other countries sometimes have other financial incentives for having children, such as in Russia, and as you mentioned, child slavery is another incentive in other countries as well. It's simply a possible reason for why people may choose to reproduce; an effort to answer the OPs original question.

    5) No; you weren't brought into this world to worry about everyone else. You probably weren't brought into this world for any particularly special reason whatsoever. If your content to only ever worry about yourself, then more power to you I suppose. Personally I care about my home and my neighbors though, and would like to do what I can to help out; it makes me feel good inside, and it makes the world a bit of a better place too. Imagine if everyone cared.

    I personally feel the world is overpopulated, AND mismanaged hahaha. I honestly want a solar flare to knock us all back to medieval times. Just to see what happens. I imagine the proverbial wheat would be separated from the proverbial chaff pretty quickly hahaha....and the population would be re-stabilized as well because all the idiots would end up dying of starvation or killing each other off as they loot each other's resources, because they're incapable of surviving on their lonesome, because they've always been taken care of by the government, and never bothered educating themselves, because it was too boring to them, and because their government never taught any of the necessary subjects for survival in school. Poor souls. Just the circle of life I suppose; only the strong survive.

    PS: There's these new places called orphanges where you can actually adopt existing children without bringing forth your own into the world; orphanages also aren't the best places for children; a lot are abused and neglected. If I ever want kids, personally, I'd rather adopt; I'd be doing at least two good things with just one act; sounds like some nice karma to me if nothing else.

    --Sollomyn

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkfeathers View Post
    I'm 100% pro-choice. My choice was always to not have kids, but most people's choice is to have them. As long as it's (in either case) what you really want, go for it.
    Same here; pro-choice...in the sense I believe people should have the right to choose for themselves whether or not to have children; I don't feel it is the Government's place to say one CAN'T have any children (or NEEDS to have children). I'm not an advocate of abortion though; I personally feel that attacking human life is wrong, and that if one doesn't want a baby, they shouldn't have unprotected sex; not kill the baby when it starts growing inside them after unprotected sex.
    Last edited by Sollomyn; 09 Mar 2019 at 20:10.

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