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Thread: Transhumanism or Posthumanism (Is being called a new religion by some)

  1. #11
    Member Pythagoras's Avatar
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    Re: Transhumanism or Posthumanism (Is being called a new religion by some)

    What always amazes me is that overpopulation enthusiasts almost always permeate an eugenics mindset namely the belief that there are those that should breed while all those deemed "useless eaters" shouldn't breed at all because their very existence is deemed existential pollution.

    It revolves around the belief that there are those that have the right to live while denying the right to exist by others, more amusing is that a lot of these perceptions come from the modern political left that are supposedly socialist or egalitarian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heka View Post
    Personally I'm fan of the "Thanos" solution haha. It's better than the "Kingsmen" or "The 100" ��
    Who gets to live and who gets to die?

    Eugenics sounds great until you're the one classified as the "useless eater" in the eyes of alleged superior betters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heka View Post
    The worlds population has doubled since 1970. Literally a single lifetime. There is no way the world can adapt to that.
    What exactly is the acceptable global population rate or number? Does that even exist at all?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heka View Post
    I'm not even comfortable with like AI upgrades etc. Like itd be cool to be plugged into the internet all the time, but anything that changes out definition of human makes me uncomfortable. It's like living forever. So far long life is only benefiting the old. And the world is overpopulated as it is. Until we develop a way to stop the over-breeding in some areas, then we can't have super humans, or extra long life or any of that stuff.
    Super humans? Humanity for all its fool hearty bravado is not in control of this world, only nature and Gaia is in control of this reality despite our grand delusions of ourselves otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thalassa View Post
    Its been my experience that when people say things like they think overpopulation is a myth they typically have a poor grasp on population dynamics as it relates to carrying capacity and ecological resilience.

    I have no interest in having a post-biological experience. Tech will not "save" us, though it might help.
    What is the specific carrying capacity exactly? Nobody in these conversations ever states specifics and it instead revolves around vague platitudes or emotional sentiments.
    Last edited by Pythagoras; 04 Jun 2019 at 19:26.
    "When Zeus was setting all things in order there fell from him drops of sacred blood, and from them, as they say, arose the race of men."- Flavius Claudius Iulianus Augustus



  2. #12
    Loud Mouth Heka's Avatar
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    Re: Transhumanism or Posthumanism (Is being called a new religion by some)

    I'm not interested in eugenics. That's why I like the "Thanos" system. A random 50%.

    Also yes people should have a license to breed.
    ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

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    Re: Transhumanism or Posthumanism (Is being called a new religion by some)

    Quote Originally Posted by Heka View Post
    I'm not interested in eugenics. That's why I like the "Thanos" system. A random 50%.

    Also yes people should have a license to breed.
    A license to breed? Who gets to breed and who doesn't?

    Killing and destroying random segments of a population? Yeah, that doesn't sound psychotic at all.....
    Last edited by Pythagoras; 04 Jun 2019 at 20:55.
    "When Zeus was setting all things in order there fell from him drops of sacred blood, and from them, as they say, arose the race of men."- Flavius Claudius Iulianus Augustus



  4. #14
    The Gaze of the Abyss B. de Corbin's Avatar
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    Re: Transhumanism or Posthumanism (Is being called a new religion by some)

    Some things are just inherently insane.

    Deciding that those people have to die so these people can live is one of them.

    I'm hoping that those here who are a bit older will remember the horrendous "fixes" that were floated when HIV started to hit back in the 80s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thalassa View Post
    Its been my experience that when people say things like they think overpopulation is a myth they typically have a poor grasp on population dynamics as it relates to carrying capacity and ecological resilience.

    I have no interest in having a post-biological experience. Tech will not "save" us, though it might help.
    Ultimately, even if all resouces are optimized and all waste is recycled, a closed system will always end up in the red. Something is inevitably lost to entropy.

    The only solution is to unclose the system.
    Those who have suffered understand suffering and therefore extend their hand.

    I can't do everything, but I can do something.

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    Loud Mouth Heka's Avatar
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    Re: Transhumanism or Posthumanism (Is being called a new religion by some)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pythagoras View Post
    A license to breed? Who gets to breed and who doesn't?

    Killing and destroying random segments of a population? Yeah, that doesn't sound psychotic at all.....
    I answered the first bit in the other thread

    And of course its psychotic. But who told you I wasnt psychotic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by B. de Corbin View Post
    Some things are just inherently insane.

    Deciding that those people have to die so these people can live is one of them.
    I'm not precious about my life, or anyone elses haha, I'm quite happy if we were all wiped out. I've done near death now. It doesnt scare me. I'd like to see how humanity ends up, but I'm neither optimistic or precious about it.
    ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

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    That everything was shit.

    - J. Wylder

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    Member Pythagoras's Avatar
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    Re: Transhumanism or Posthumanism (Is being called a new religion by some)

    Quote Originally Posted by Heka View Post
    I answered the first bit in the other thread

    And of course its psychotic. But who told you I wasnt psychotic?

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    I'm not precious about my life, or anyone elses haha, I'm quite happy if we were all wiped out. I've done near death now. It doesnt scare me. I'd like to see how humanity ends up, but I'm neither optimistic or precious about it.
    Thankfully such a thought process will never succeed.
    "When Zeus was setting all things in order there fell from him drops of sacred blood, and from them, as they say, arose the race of men."- Flavius Claudius Iulianus Augustus



  7. #17
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    Re: Transhumanism or Posthumanism (Is being called a new religion by some)

    Humanity for all its fool hearty bravado is not in control of this world, only nature and Gaia is in control of this reality despite our grand delusions of ourselves otherwise.
    Humanity does not need to be fully in control of the world to do enough damage to irrevocable alter the cycles that the biosphere depends upon for perpetuation in ways that lead to the extinction of a vast proportion of biodiversity that will take millions of years of recovery. In that process, it is unlikely our own species will survive. Yes, the planet will outlive humanity...that's still not an excuse to decimate 50% of its lifeforms along with our own. Nature has checks and balances within an ecosystem. Humans on the other hand, stopped living within an ecosystem long ago.


    What exactly is the acceptable global population rate or number? Does that even exist at all?
    What is the specific carrying capacity exactly? Nobody in these conversations ever states specifics and it instead revolves around vague platitudes or emotional sentiments.
    That's a great question. And the short answer to that question is that scientists aren't sure because it depends on the variables used to calculate it, some of which are not precisely understood in their entirety. Additionally complicating an easy answer is figuring out how to put the answer in a format most people can understand, the variability between different scales (globally vs. locally, etc.) and differences in resource use by different groups of people with different types of lifestyles, and how that number changes as environmental degradation continues to accumulate or as people are able to live longer (and often using more resources to do it).

    Corbin is exactly right in saying "Ultimately, even if all resources are optimized and all waste is recycled, a closed system will always end up in the red. Something is inevitably lost to entropy. The only solution is to unclose the system." This is true whether the system is the Earth or whether its an engine. Luckily, the biosphere is not a closed system--energy from the sun is converted into mass by photosynthesizing organisms (or, more rarely, chemicals and heat from elsewhere is converted similarly by bacteria), which became the base of a complicated host of trophic interactions between organisms. Different ecosystems can support different levels of complexity (number of species, population sizes, etc.) based on a number of variables, including precipitation, temperature (mainly a function of location in proximity to the equator and altitude), and resource availability.

    And none of that addresses the most important factor, are we basing the carrying capacity on how many humans we can cram onto this mudball at the expense of everything else...or are we accounting for the replenishment of resources and conservation of biodiversity? Functionally speaking, carrying capacity is the number of organisms that can survive on the available resources. By any measure, we passed that quite some time ago. Populations can exist beyond carrying capacity for a time, but inevitability there comes a crash. Are we calling human carrying capacity when we start dropping like flies, or when we start dropping everything else like flies?

    Think of the Earth System as a bus that is overloaded. Up to a point each new rider has a “linear” impact—causing the bus to tilt a little more when it turns. No one pays much attention when another and then another rider climb on the bus. After all it just seems to cause the bus to tilt a little more each time. Then at some point, just one more added rider causes the bus to overturn as it rounds a corner. What had up to that point had a linear impact—one passenger equals a little more tilt—reaches a tipping point—one passenger equals an overturned bus. Continuing with the metaphor, several factors can influence the tipping, such as speed, weight of the passengers, condition of the suspension, sharpness of the turn, and so on. Some of these are contributing factors to the stress on the bus (e.g. weight of passengers) and others are factors which reduce the buses ability to handle that stress (e.g. the condition of the suspension).

    https://na.unep.net/geas/archive/pdf...g_Capacity.pdf
    ^This is the tipping point concept proposed by the Stockholm Resilience Centre. If we look at tipping points of various systems, we've already exceeded the calculated boundary values for four of nine critical processes and are very close to exceeding two others globally and one more, regionally. Using the tipping point boundaries, there need not be a number, as long as the population can keep within those boundaries. However, if we look at the way our world actually functions, we surpassed the first of these tipping points in 1988, when the population of the planet was just under 5.2 billion.

    Another way to look at carrying capacity is on what our resource use is compared to the Earth's ability to renew itself. If we look at it from this perspective, this year, on the 29th of July, the humans upon the planet will have used more than the earth can renew within a single year, based on the global biocapacity of 1.63 gha per person (gha=globally comparable, standardized hectacres=a representation of the amount of land needed to absorb our waste and generate new resources). Last year, it was 1 August. Before 1970, there was no overshoot day...and there were ~3.7 billion people on earth.

    Or we can look at food production--if all the world were vegetarians, based purely on land use and the food system as it exists now (which fails to account for declining yields from warming temperatures and unstable growing seasons, soil erosion and nutrient loss, water shortages, etc.), carrying capacity is about 10 billion...if all the world starts eating (and using farmland) like an American, its around 2.5 billion.


    ...basically, its complicated and it depends on the variables assessed and the criteria for defining what we mean by human carrying capacity
    Last edited by thalassa; 13 Jun 2019 at 07:03.
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