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Thread: Subjective meaning vs Objective Facts and their role in your religion

  1. #11
    Copper Member Thorbjorn's Avatar
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    Re: Subjective meaning vs Objective Facts and their role in your religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Rae'ya View Post
    I don't require objective facts to support my beliefs, but I do require that whatever objective facts exist do not oppose my beliefs. Just because we can't prove something objectively, does not mean that it does not exist. So there is plenty of room in the scientific side of my brain for deities, non-corporeal entities, Otherworlds, magic and the supernatural. My spiritual worldview also inherently facilitates a harmonious blending of objective facts with subjective experiences... just because we can explain the scientific processes behind an event, doesn't mean that there is nothing Divine or spiritual within those scientific processes. I guess what I'm trying to say is that for me, science doesn't preclude spiritual.

    But then I have never believed in the sort of spiritual that precludes science. So I haven't ever had the crisis of faith of realising that what I believe can't be possible.
    My feelings to a t. I really not need expand on it (but I will ).

    Like you, I don't want to see science disprove the beliefs I have. If we're talking about needing proof of something I believe in, then no, I don't require it. I'm working purely on faith. However, modern theoretical physics is beginning to line up with, or discover some truth in what Hinduism has held about the nature of existence and cosmology for 5,000 years, and even support it. Maybe the rishis were more in tune with the natural world, or maybe because they devoted their lives to meditation, they had plenty of time to mentally masturbate on it. If it turns out that our gods really are blue-skinned benevolent extraterrestrials, hey, that's cool too. And maybe the rishis did get their knowledge from some blue dude with multiple arms. Who knows?
    śivāya vishnu rūpaya śivaḥ rūpaya vishnave
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  2. #12
    Opinionated Rae'ya's Avatar
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    Re: Subjective meaning vs Objective Facts and their role in your religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Azvanna View Post
    Doesn't objective reality show you what is possible?
    Yes and no. The problem (or otherwise) is that we do not have enough 'objective reality' to cover everything. We don't understand everything. Science can't explain everything. Did you know that we actually don't know WHY anaesthetic agents cause unconsciousness? We know where most of them work, because we can measure some of the effects in specific cells and molecular structures... but we can't actually explain WHY they work. We just know that they do. So while there is empirical evidence (I presume this is what you mean by 'objective reality') that they work... we can't actually empirically explain it.

    So objective reality explains some things that are possible, but it doesn't explain everything. And in many cases, the objective reality that we have does not limit what is possible. Does that make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azvanna View Post
    What is the point in believing something about yourself or your god if there is no influence on the matter that's around you? I know there's the belief that thoughts make our world.. but surely positive thinking can only take you so far..
    Because it enriches your life. Plain and simple. If in enriches your life, then there is a point in believing it. If it affects the matter inside of you, and if it affects your way of thinking and acting in a way that improves your experience of life... then there is a point in believing it. I don't need my gods to be able to spontaneously light a bush on fire in order to make me believe in them. What would be the point of that? They would have killed an innocent bush for no reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azvanna View Post
    If religion has no basis in objective reality, then how can it effect objective reality?
    Not all religion has no basis in objective reality.

    And the reality is that our scope of objective reality is not complete. We can't explain everything. We can't measure everything. We can't get our pre-eminant scientists and experts to agree on all the existing hypothesis and theories. So there is no complete and true 'objective reality'. There are holes. There a huge chunks missing. There are evolutions of thought and technology that prove previous 'objective realities' to have been flawed and incorrect. Spirituality fills the gaps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azvanna View Post
    Wouldn't it be more honest to reframe spirituality into atheistic terms?
    Nope. It would be more honest to reframe spirituality into agnostic terms. Because we simply do not know everything for certain.

    Personally, I like to paraphrase Thalassa in that I am intellectually agnostic while simultaneously being a hard polytheist who believes that my deities exist in another world (aka another plane of existence... and there are plenty of physicists and astrophysicists who postulate on the 'reality' of this). I don't know that what I believe is real. But I don't know that it's not real either. So unless some empirical evidence pops up, I'm going to continue believing my beliefs because they are plausible and they enrich my life.
    Last edited by Rae'ya; 01 Mar 2019 at 01:49.

  3. #13
    The Gaze of the Abyss B. de Corbin's Avatar
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    Re: Subjective meaning vs Objective Facts and their role in your religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Rae'ya View Post
    ...So unless some empirical evidence pops up, I'm going to continue believing my beliefs because they are plausible and they enrich my life.
    This is the key.

    Subjective meaning is an interpretation of reality, while objective facts are a measure of reality.

    The interpretation needs to match the measure. When it doesn't, it is almost certainly wrong. This means that the interpretation is as subject to change as is the measure - when new data comes in.
    Those who have suffered understand suffering and therefore extend their hand.

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    Member Muramasa's Avatar
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    Re: Subjective meaning vs Objective Facts and their role in your religion

    The objective reality is the most important to me. That's why I have not religion at all. I'm an atheist.
    I like paganisn, because it is awesome and I would like to practice it like Willow (Buffy the Vampire Slayer), but I have't seen the proof that anything of that would work.

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    Supporter kalynraye's Avatar
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    Re: Subjective meaning vs Objective Facts and their role in your religion

    Its not important at all. I do not need hard physical proof that my deities are real. That's what I have my faith for and while I may see little acts or signs from them in every day life that does not mean another would take them for that.

    Without sounding crazy I have always known certain things. That probably has something to do with my personality type, I know a whole nother conversation but I'm in INFJ and there are things I know and there are things I don't and one thing I "know" and have always known based on feelings alone is my deities are real.

    That doesn't mean that I have problems with science and all that it discovers. I think they work quite well in conjunction.
    "If you want to know what a man is like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals." -- Sirius Black

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  6. #16
    Silver Member Bartmanhomer's Avatar
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    Re: Subjective meaning vs Objective Facts and their role in your religion

    Quote Originally Posted by kalynraye View Post
    It's not important at all. I do not need hard physical proof that my deities are real. That's what I have my faith for and while I may see little acts or signs from them in everyday life that does not mean another would take them for that.

    Without sounding crazy I have always known certain things. That probably has something to do with my personality type, I know a whole nother conversation but I'm an INFJ and there are things I know and there are things I don't and one thing I "know" and have always known based on feelings alone is my deities are real.

    That doesn't mean that I have problems with science and all that it discovers. I think they work quite well in conjunction.
    I feel the same way. I'm a Christian and I always believe in God. Although I've changed belief systems from time to time. Christian, then Taoist and Christian again. I'm not anti-science myself but I always rely on faith. That's just what I believe in.

  7. #17

    Re: Subjective meaning vs Objective Facts and their role in your religion

    Objective fact is highly important to me in my religion; I don't have deities in the traditional sense though; my God is the Sun, and my Goddess is the Moon; the forces of Nature are their children. If the Sun and the Moon were to suddenly disappear, life on Earth, (as we know it), would cease to exist.

    The force of Nature that's responsible for my magick is what scientists call supersymmetric string theory, (a relatively new concept that's even smaller in scale than traditional string theory). All of the "strings" woven together to create the Universe as we know it, connects all things together. Everything is simply energy, just in different states of existence. At the end of the day, we're all made up of the same stuff. Science has even been able to prove, (or at the least nearly prove), that thoughts themselves can actually change the fundamental subatomic particles of an object without ever actually touching it; they had people focus intently on an object that was hooked up to a bunch of intricate sensors; when the person started concentrating on the objects, the underlying properties and vibrations of that object started to change. When the person stopped focusing on the object, the fundamental properties and vibrations reverted back to their original state. Virtually undeniable proof that thoughts can affect reality.

    Sometimes I wonder if consciousness itself creates reality; that could explain why we've never found the ends of the Universe yet; because the further out into space that we search, the more our consciousness ends up creating for us to discover, because we simply cannot quite fathom the idea of nothing; even "nothing" is something technically speaking, but perhaps because we merely expect to find something, our energy manifests the energy of something else to find, if that makes sense. This of course is just a fun pondering of mine; I don't truly believe it because it's outside of objective fact at this point.

    One thing I don't believe in are physical gods, because almost every ancient religion depicts their gods as either coming down from the sky (the Annunaki) or going up into the sky (Christianity). It is clear to me personally that these beings weren't gods; they were extraterrestrial biological entities which were interfering with our evolution on Earth, which goes against Star Fleet's Prime Directive...yes...I'm a Trekkie hahaha.

    ...To be fair though, my gods also appear to rise to and fall from the sky haha (the Sun and the Moon). Another interesting thing to note is that the Holy Bible is based on the words Helios Biblios, (or something like that), which literally means "Sun Book". And the son of God had twelve disciples; much like my gods created twelve months....there's a lot of interesting coincidences in Jesus's rise, journey, and fall, that correspond with my beliefs regarding the son and the moon; it's possible that the story of the Gospel is a beautiful allegorical personification of sun worship.

    --Sollomyn
    Last edited by Sollomyn; 09 Mar 2019 at 18:11.

  8. #18
    Moderator Azvanna's Avatar
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    Re: Subjective meaning vs Objective Facts and their role in your religion

    Quote Originally Posted by B. de Corbin View Post
    This is the key.

    Subjective meaning is an interpretation of reality, while objective facts are a measure of reality.

    The interpretation needs to match the measure. When it doesn't, it is almost certainly wrong. This means that the interpretation is as subject to change as is the measure - when new data comes in.
    I love this response, I tried to rep it twice. lol

    Thank you also everyone else for responding. I liked how you draw parallels between the 12 months of the year, and the 12 disciples. Numerology is an aspect of the Old Testament in particular that is lost in our English translation.

    It's very hard for me to understand why objective evidence isn't necessary for some people. Like you Faye Cat, I'm an NF... I'm fine with not having concrete evidence around my ideas and in my approach to solving problems. I'm totally mystified as to why this is suddenly so important to me. I just think... if your god can do nothing for you in this physical plane in which you exist, what is the point? Thanks Rae'ya for your thoughts there (on a side note, did you know the bush didn't burn?). If my god can do nothing for me, I'd rather reframe all my thoughts into a secular point of view to avoid disappointment! What is a God if not something to be revered for its power and mystery, something to be emulated?
    Spirituality fills the gaps.
    This here is something I could never be comfortable with... what happens when we know enough to fill in the gaps? Do our gods disappear? I used to think that science and religion were compatible because science is just how God does things. Now I think that the human idea of divinity and how we treat holy texts needs a serious overhaul for there to be congruency between the two.

    Right now, I"m at a point in my faith where I can't give myself any objective evidence for the existence of God. I never could of course, but I'm not sure why this is suddenly so important to me. Everything I call 'God' comes down to experiences I have when I pray and worship. I feel like I get some kind of feedback. And although I know it could have it roots in psychology, the best language I have to describe it comes from spirituality. So I keep using this framework to explore. When I intercede for people, I keep praying until I feel I've reached the 'other' and then make my requests. When I worship, I can feel the energy in the room and know what to do when to lift the energy or drop it. I look at people and know stuff about them.. It's all very subjective but it doesn't make it less real.. and there's the maddening part.

    Considering there are so many other people like me, I do believe spirituality is a shared human experience to be taken seriously and to be treasured, but definitely not above scrutiny. I suppose that is what I'm looking for. A way to give spirituality relevance beyond subjective experience. Something that can result in shared experience and shared reality for many people, but that can grow with 'the measure.' A point of connection without the trap of staying stagnated.

    My hope for my religion (not my faith, but for Christianity as a whole) is that leaders will emerge who won't be afraid of supporting questions about the nature of God. I hope that instead of having all the answers, my leaders try to spark questions to continue conversation and enquiry, to set other people on a path of discovery. I hope to be part of church that will teach people how to take meaning from the Bible beyond a literal sense. I'm hoping for maturity.

    And for myself, I'm hoping for either renewal of faith or the bravery to walk away from it.

  9. #19
    Live and learn anunitu's Avatar
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    Re: Subjective meaning vs Objective Facts and their role in your religion

    i alwas believe there has to be something directing this reality i might not be able to pin it down with science but i find myself "seeing" the missing form in the grater landscape like a shadow cast by an invisible form i hope i am being clear here
    MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

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    Re: Subjective meaning vs Objective Facts and their role in your religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Rae'ya View Post
    I don't require objective facts to support my beliefs, but I do require that whatever objective facts exist do not oppose my beliefs.
    This is how I think. Furthermore I look for alternative interpretations of my beliefs that are plausible in a universe without gods, miracles, and an afterlife should that be the case. I can still work with gods and afterlife ideas under non-literal interpretations. I can expand on this later if desired.

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