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Thread: Climate change discussion (practise for Azvanna)

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    Moderator Azvanna's Avatar
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    Climate change discussion (practise for Azvanna)

    So... last week I was asked to intern for Citizen's Climate Lobby Australia! So chuffed! They also showed interest in funding a short film and local forum in my region, just opening a discussion on climate change (I live in a region with many deniers or fence-sitters). The end goal is to get enough public support to create political pressure.

    I'd really like to practise discussing global warming and climate action. I would love to have some people play devil's advocate for me.

    So, the main ideas I'd like to discuss with you are:

    - Do you believe that Earth's climate is changing due to human activity? Why or why not?
    - What do you believe is the most effective way to minimize global warming and its impact, if at all possible?
    - Have you noticed any changes in the environment around you already?
    - Are your friends and acquaintenances concerned about global warming?

    I'm not well-versed in dealing with scholarly articles or hard-core science-y stuff. You can expect me to keep everything in plain english. If you could do the same for me too, I'd appreciate that and it would reduce the amount of times I have to ask you what you mean.

    Let's keep it chilled...bad pun?
    Last edited by Azvanna; 16 Jun 2019 at 03:08.

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    Moderator Azvanna's Avatar
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    Re: Climate change discussion (practise for Azvanna)

    I’m in awe that no one has replied to this given this is a forum where people with earth honouring religions congregate. Any takers before I ask for the thread to go to the graveyard?

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    Sr. Member faye_cat's Avatar
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    Re: Climate change discussion (practise for Azvanna)

    I must have missed this one!

    - Do you believe that Earth's climate is changing due to human activity? Why or why not?
    Yes, completely. The world has changed in so many ways, humanity has not done well with keeping up with the balance part of their advancements

    - What do you believe is the most effective way to minimize global warming and its impact, if at all possible?
    Embrace cleaner energy, have a team dedicated to studying all impacts of them, find ways to embrace non destructive advancement, fine companies and billionaires who don't.


    - Have you noticed any changes in the environment around you already?
    The seasons are completely different from my childhood. Allergies and sinuses are worse, and certain animals and patterns are altered or completely gone.


    - Are your friends and acquaintenances concerned about global warming
    Most of the people in my life are, yes. There are still some who are short sighted and insist on staying uneducated.
    “I am Cat and I walk alone and all ways are the same to me.” ~Rudyard Kipling, The Cat Who Walks By Himself

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    Kick Ass Little Crow Corvus's Avatar
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    Re: Climate change discussion (practise for Azvanna)

    Anthropogenic climate change exists definitively. There isn't really a debate to be had there and if anyone tells you there isnt a consensus among climate scientists about that, then they're either lying or misinformed. Humans are influencing global climate on several levels, most principally by producing greenhouse gas emissions faster than carbon sequestering and other processes can remove them. The data is quite clear that this type of rapid global temperature shift, on the order of decades and centuries, is unprecedented in its rapidity throughout history and thus it is highly unlikely to be a result of natural processes.

    Point two is that large corporations are a huge problem, especially those with interests in energy and oil production who stand to lose with large scale dismantling of these industries. Identify the entities associated with the greatest levels of pollution and environmental exploitation and work to remove or amend them, but this requires pushing back against the lobbyists of them and their supporters. Also abolish billionaires. That level of wealth is immoral and must come from excessive exploitation of human or natural resources.

    I think the avenue here is through legislation but it must be accomplished by all world powers to be effective. This will probably be near impossible with some countries, like Saudi Arabia, either because they lack the ability for whatever reason, or have strong incentives to continue using these practices. It isnt because normal people arent recycling, although do that, it's because of systemic exploitation and unsustainable use of environmentally destructive practices and agents by a few large entities.

    I live in upstate New York. We're famous for our leaves, they're super cool and pretty. They only started changing about a week and a half ago here. That is weird. When I was a kid, I remember that being more of a late September thing. It's really weird how we go from 40F at night to 80F during the day. This is my local level and that seems way more temperamental than it should be here. We harvested our vegetable garden early because there was going to be frost, the next day it was in the 70s.

    I dont know anyone who isnt at least a little concerned about climate change. It is a regular topic of conversation among my roomates and friends. we are distressed.

    It's my opinion that continual use of fossil fuels and other environmentally destructive processes is an act of harm both to that nation's people, and the global population. As such, egregious examples of such acts should be considered violations of human rights, or even an act of war against the global population. It is the sowing salt of the modern day, a poisoning of our air and water. International respect for the sovereignty of nations makes these agreements impossible to enforce legally, but the people know. People have, are, and will continue to die from the effects of global climate change and environmental exploitation.There will be riots if the nations do not listen and the leaders are responsible for the poisoning of their people and land.
    世の中に潜み落下した「アレ」はねえか? 誰が書き換える 世界の汚れは?
    Do you have 'that' which lies dormant within society? Who can overwrite it, the filth in the world?


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    Moderator Azvanna's Avatar
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    Re: Climate change discussion (practise for Azvanna)

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    There isn't really a debate to be had there and if anyone tells you there isnt a consensus among climate scientists about that, then they're either lying or misinformed. Humans are influencing global climate on several levels, most principally by producing greenhouse gas emissions faster than carbon sequestering and other processes can remove them. The data is quite clear that this type of rapid global temperature shift, on the order of decades and centuries, is unprecedented in its rapidity throughout history and thus it is highly unlikely to be a result of natural processes.
    Spot on. The problem with some people is getting them to connect with those facts and turn it into a narrative that plays in their minds. In my town, climate change is a polarised topic. People push back against it with a vehemence I've never seen. It's as though there's a self-protecting psychological thing happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    Point two is that large corporations are a huge problem, especially those with interests in energy and oil production who stand to lose with large scale dismantling of these industries. Identify the entities associated with the greatest levels of pollution and environmental exploitation and work to remove or amend them, but this requires pushing back against the lobbyists of them and their supporters.
    This is a particular problem in Australia where there is a revolving door between Public Servants and big business. The example of Cameron Milner is of particular interest as the ALP (Australian Labor Party) is the party most likely to come into power if Australians start voting with climate action in mind.


    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    I think the avenue here is through legislation but it must be accomplished by all world powers to be effective. This will probably be near impossible with some countries, like Saudi Arabia, either because they lack the ability for whatever reason, or have strong incentives to continue using these practices. It isnt because normal people arent recycling, although do that, it's because of systemic exploitation and unsustainable use of environmentally destructive practices and agents by a few large entities.
    I think you've made a really important point here. It's easy to get side-tracked with other good-for-the-planet projects and forget about the political side of the equation here. Consumer choice (sorry Danni!) plays a role in business development but with an emergency of this scale, it's really infrastructure changes that need to take place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    This is my local level and that seems way more temperamental than it should be here.
    I've noticed that in my town too. Add in the drought that is pretty much country wide right now...

    I dont know anyone who isnt at least a little concerned about climate change. It is a regular topic of conversation among my roomates and friends. we are distressed.

    It's my opinion that continual use of fossil fuels and other environmentally destructive processes is an act of harm both to that nation's people, and the global population. As such, egregious examples of such acts should be considered violations of human rights, or even an act of war against the global population. It is the sowing salt of the modern day, a poisoning of our air and water. International respect for the sovereignty of nations makes these agreements impossible to enforce legally, but the people know. People have, are, and will continue to die from the effects of global climate change and environmental exploitation.There will be riots if the nations do not listen and the leaders are responsible for the poisoning of their people and land.[/QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by faye_cat View Post
    There are still some who are short sighted and insist on staying uneducated.
    How is the mood in the US in regards to climate action? I've heard it's really polarised and maybe a 50/50 split?

  6. #6

    Re: Climate change discussion (practise for Azvanna)

    You wanted devils advocate. Ill drop you the most common things I hear in my professional capacity on this issue. The denyoing set is past denying, and on to negotiating.

    #1 So what.
    #2. See above, additionally, whjyt should I impoverish myself as a producer knowing that my competitors will not and that no change I make will balance out when the greater portion of the worlds population without access to these products gets them..and uses them?

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    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
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    Re: Climate change discussion (practise for Azvanna)

    Quote Originally Posted by Azvanna View Post
    I’m in awe that no one has replied to this given this is a forum where people with earth honouring religions congregate. Any takers before I ask for the thread to go to the graveyard?
    You asked this while I was busy moving, lol!


    Quote Originally Posted by Azvanna View Post
    So... last week I was asked to intern for Citizen's Climate Lobby Australia! So chuffed! They also showed interest in funding a short film and local forum in my region, just opening a discussion on climate change (I live in a region with many deniers or fence-sitters). The end goal is to get enough public support to create political pressure.
    Congrats!!



    I'd really like to practise discussing global warming and climate action. I would love to have some people play devil's advocate for me.
    There are some really good resources for this, if you aren't aware of them already:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY1HweENTeU

    Concerning the attitude about it and attitudes in the US, this is pretty good info: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BvcToPZCLI She's (the same person as in the previous video) especially useful as a speaker to conservatives on the matter from a religious/Christian perspective and can talk about climate change authentically from that perspective.



    But, when it comes to actual skeptic POVs and rebuttals, this site does a good job with the science: https://skepticalscience.com/


    So, the main ideas I'd like to discuss with you are:

    - Do you believe that Earth's climate is changing due to human activity? Why or why not?
    - What do you believe is the most effective way to minimize global warming and its impact, if at all possible?
    - Have you noticed any changes in the environment around you already?
    - Are your friends and acquaintenances concerned about global warming?
    1. Of course I believe something that science overwhelmingly supports. That's like asking if the sky is blue on a sunny day and water is wet when it rains

    2. I'll get back to this one...

    3. I have an entire powerpoint about how climate is disrupting agriculture and food production and what that means for us in the next 50 years, one of which is about the complete shift of growing zones, so yes.

    4. Yeah, because most of my friends are science nerds...





    2. I absolutely believe we can minimize or even reverse global warming. I also believe we can do this with mostly low tech solutions. I believe that we can do this without even having to fully eliminate fossil fuels extraction or even without totally rearranging out economies, etc. I think we should do these things, but I don't think we have to for climate change.


    What we have to do is actually pretty simple and many of the things actually cost less, etc...but some are hard and expensive and require sacrifice

    I'm not going to be able to be able to hit all of them tonight (gotta sleep), but I'll start with my personal favorite, soil.

    1. Prevent erosion.
    2. Enrich soil.
    3. Prevent erosion.

    How? Minimize tilling where possible, develop native plants as crops in the areas where they are traditionally endemic, rotate crops and/or avoid monoculture agriculture, reduce food waste in order to use less land for ag, reduce mat consumption in order to use less land for livestock and less land for ag to feed livestock (both of which reduce water pollution, including nitrates, and pesticide use).

    https://www.usnews.com/news/articles...climate-change
    https://theconversation.com/restorin...-change-121733
    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02450-6
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
    ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

    Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible

  8. #8

    Re: Climate change discussion (practise for Azvanna)

    Ill stress again that we, as advocates, need to move away from the low hanging fruit of deniers and on to the more troubling issues for what we hope to see happen in the world, in future.

    To that end, trendy ideas like "less livestock" need to be seriously and critically looked at..because while they may line up with our ideology (and they certainly line up with my business model, lol)...the truth is that the other side has our side dead to rights when they tell us that's nonsense. Less livestock will just starve people, and were not saving the earth for earths sake, but for ours.

    The same is true about the estimated costs of climate change..which, while massive as a raw number projected out to say, 2150..are actually less expensive than the environmental cleanup would be when adjusted for growth and inflation in that same period. That, completely ignoring the very real human misery that current plans to combat climate change would cause. This means that the average first worlder's experience will never line up to climate projections or climate realities. We'll be arguing with people who, even by 2150...still haven't suffered any of the consequences they were told would be unavoidable.

    I know, I know, what about their humanitarian impulses? Their what, I ask?

    Inconvenient truths of an entirely different kind.

    It will always be an uphill battle for anyone reading this convo, on the internet, because developed countries simply aren't going to feel the brunt of climate change regardless of whether we ever do anything about it. That will be felt by poor undeveloped countries with insufficient means to feed themselves, no resource to trade for food.....

    .......and every reason to burn fossil fuels, like we did, to change that situation.
    Last edited by Rhythm; 31 Oct 2019 at 15:25.

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    Moderator Azvanna's Avatar
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    Re: Climate change discussion (practise for Azvanna)

    I’ll be back to this thread soon! I met with my MP yesterday so have been putting my spare time into prepping for that! I’ve got breathing room now.

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    Moderator Azvanna's Avatar
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    Re: Climate change discussion (practise for Azvanna)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhythm View Post
    You wanted devils advocate. Ill drop you the most common things I hear in my professional capacity on this issue. The denyoing set is past denying, and on to negotiating.

    #1 So what.
    #2. See above, additionally, whjyt should I impoverish myself as a producer knowing that my competitors will not and that no change I make will balance out when the greater portion of the worlds population without access to these products gets them..and uses them?
    !!! What is your professional capacity?

    I know no one who has actually admitted to thinking this way, but I'm sure they're out there. For people in this frame of mind, there is no6 point arguing. It as you say.. no humanitarian impulse there whatsoever. However, what we can do with people like this is legislate. We make using fossil fuels less lucrative. How? A solution might be the carbon fee and dividend as per CCL is pushing for. Tax the use of fossil fuel at the point of entry into the economy then distribute the revenue evenly among each voting citizen. In Australia, that's everyone over 18. Yes, that means the cost of products gets passed on to the consumer but the consumer also gets a dividend at tax time. CCL estimate that low to middle income earners would be better off under this system even if their usage habits don't change. So it encourages businesses to invest in renewables as the consumer demand is there and encourages consumers to buy products with a low carbon footprint.

    Thalassa, I love all your resources. I have never heard of Katharine Hayhoe. I'm wowed by her!! I wish I were this convincing!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhythm View Post
    Ill stress again that we, as advocates, need to move away from the low hanging fruit of deniers and on to the more troubling issues for what we hope to see happen in the world, in future.

    To that end, trendy ideas like "less livestock" need to be seriously and critically looked at..because while they may line up with our ideology (and they certainly line up with my business model, lol)...the truth is that the other side has our side dead to rights when they tell us that's nonsense. Less livestock will just starve people, and were not saving the earth for earths sake, but for ours.

    The same is true about the estimated costs of climate change..which, while massive as a raw number projected out to say, 2150..are actually less expensive than the environmental cleanup would be when adjusted for growth and inflation in that same period. That, completely ignoring the very real human misery that current plans to combat climate change would cause. This means that the average first worlder's experience will never line up to climate projections or climate realities. We'll be arguing with people who, even by 2150...still haven't suffered any of the consequences they were told would be unavoidable.

    I know, I know, what about their humanitarian impulses? Their what, I ask?

    Inconvenient truths of an entirely different kind.

    It will always be an uphill battle for anyone reading this convo, on the internet, because developed countries simply aren't going to feel the brunt of climate change regardless of whether we ever do anything about it. That will be felt by poor undeveloped countries with insufficient means to feed themselves, no resource to trade for food.....

    .......and every reason to burn fossil fuels, like we did, to change that situation.
    Rhythm you have summed this up so succinctly. Thout shall not add to this word nor take anything away. Amen.

    I'd really like to see a carbon tax reintroduced. I don't love the idea of paying tax, but I do love the idea of emission reduction. Australia was reducing emissions when we had a Carbon Tax, but it got repealed and then our emissions began to increase again. Subsequently, we lost no less than 3 Prime Ministers who were trying to introduce a price on carbon.

    What's your opinion on Nuclear Power as an energy source? My electorate's Member of Parliament (Congressman equivalent) is currently researching weather lifting the ban on Nuclear power in Australia is feasible.

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