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Thread: Celebrating Columbus Day; What's it really about?

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    Silver Member Bartmanhomer's Avatar
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    Celebrating Columbus Day; What's it really about?

    Some people still call Columbus Day even after the horrible truth what Christopher Columbus did to the Native Anericans. Also they don't teach you anything like that at schools. That's the strange part about it.

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    Re: Happy Indigenous Peoples Day

    You know, I probably sound callous and I am sorry but he did discover the America's. The past is the past. I'm not saying what he did is right, but let it go. We need to at least credit him for discovering the America's. You can disagree with me and again I am sorry if you think I am callous. I really am not trying to be. I am part Cherokee Indian, but in my view, we can't change the past. We can only live in the present and look to the future. And yes, certain people thought they were better than others so they did terrible things to others. Again we can't do anything. Ruminating in hate won't change a damned thing.
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    Silver Member Bartmanhomer's Avatar
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    Re: Happy Indigenous Peoples Day

    Quote Originally Posted by anubisa View Post
    You know, I probably sound callous and I am sorry but he did discover the America's. The past is the past. I'm not saying what he did is right, but let it go. We need to at least credit him for discovering the America's. You can disagree with me and again I am sorry if you think I am callous. I really am not trying to be. I am part Cherokee Indian, but in my view, we can't change the past. We can only live in the present and look to the future. And yes, certain people thought they were better than others so they did terrible things to others. Again we can't do anything. Ruminating in hate won't change a damned thing.
    Sorry but Native Americans discovered America not Christopher Columbus. Whatever they teach you at your school, they were dead wrong. Look I'm not here to debate this and what I'm telling is real facts.

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    bibliophibian volcaniclastic's Avatar
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    Re: Happy Indigenous Peoples Day

    Quote Originally Posted by anubisa View Post
    You know, I probably sound callous and I am sorry but he did discover the America's. The past is the past. I'm not saying what he did is right, but let it go. We need to at least credit him for discovering the America's. You can disagree with me and again I am sorry if you think I am callous. I really am not trying to be. I am part Cherokee Indian, but in my view, we can't change the past. We can only live in the present and look to the future. And yes, certain people thought they were better than others so they did terrible things to others. Again we can't do anything. Ruminating in hate won't change a damned thing.
    I wouldn't call you callous. I'd call you ignorant. Christopher Columbus was a privileged colonialist who thought he found India.

    Thanks to him, and people like him, indigenous peoples lost their families, their cultures, their language, and their lives. It's not in the past - this is still happening today in many regions of North America.

    Just twenty years ago, we were still sending children to residential schools in Canada. Just 50 years ago, we were assigning the Inuit numbers instead of names. Just 70 years ago, we were conducting experiments on indigenous people and infecting them with various diseases for the sake of science.

    Just because you're a quarter Cherokee doesn't give you the right to speak on behalf of all indigenous peoples across North America. The trauma is still very alive and very real for people who lost their siblings, aunties, mothers, and grandmothers to colonialism.
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    Silver Member anubisa's Avatar
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    Re: Happy Indigenous Peoples Day

    Quote Originally Posted by volcaniclastic View Post
    I wouldn't call you callous. I'd call you ignorant. Christopher Columbus was a privileged colonialist who thought he found India.

    Thanks to him, and people like him, indigenous peoples lost their families, their cultures, their language, and their lives. It's not in the past - this is still happening today in many regions of North America.

    Just twenty years ago, we were still sending children to residential schools in Canada. Just 50 years ago, we were assigning the Inuit numbers instead of names. Just 70 years ago, we were conducting experiments on indigenous people and infecting them with various diseases for the sake of science.

    Just because you're a quarter Cherokee doesn't give you the right to speak on behalf of all indigenous peoples across North America. The trauma is still very alive and very real for people who lost their siblings, aunties, mothers, and grandmothers to colonialism.
    And I didn't say that I was speaking for all indigenous peoples because I am 1/4 Cherokee. And I am not ignorant. I'm not saying bury the damned past. I'm not saying celebrate a man that did what he did to peoples that he thought lesser than him. I'm just saying that the man discovered the America's. We know what he did, but let's put it behind us. We can't fix it now. I feel like I'm being called out is because I just want to make peace. There will never be a way to undo what is done. No one is asking to forget the past. So I'm sorry if you think I'm ignorant, but I wasn't trying to appear that way.
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    bibliophibian volcaniclastic's Avatar
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    Re: Happy Indigenous Peoples Day

    Quote Originally Posted by anubisa View Post
    And I didn't say that I was speaking for all indigenous peoples because I am 1/4 Cherokee. And I am not ignorant. I'm not saying bury the damned past. I'm not saying celebrate a man that did what he did to peoples that he thought lesser than him. I'm just saying that the man discovered the America's. We know what he did, but let's put it behind us. We can't fix it now. I feel like I'm being called out is because I just want to make peace. There will never be a way to undo what is done. No one is asking to forget the past. So I'm sorry if you think I'm ignorant, but I wasn't trying to appear that way.
    "The past is the past. I'm not saying what he did is right, but let it go."

    ...is exactly the same as forgetting it ever existed.

    And on that note, Christopher Columbus wasn't even the first European to land on north american soil. Leif Erikson did several hundred years prior.

    Your land was founded on slavery, as was mine. It's not something we should just "put behind us".

    By asking to put the past behind us, you are dismissing the thousands of misplaced indigenous peoples, their cultures, the grief they feel inter-generationally at this loss.

    You aren't making peace. You started your previous post with "I know this is callous, but..." and it doesn't excuse you in the slightest. Apologizing and then saying an inappropriate thing doesn't make the thing any less better. You just want to voice an opinion and have no discussion to the contrary if we as an entire forum don't agree with you.
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    Re: Happy Indigenous Peoples Day

    I'm 50% Italian-American (2nd generation on my mother's side) and even we knew Columbus wasn't a great guy. I'm all for having an Indigenous People's Day, as long as there's a comparable Italian-American day to have parades and, above all, feasts!

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    Re: Happy Indigenous Peoples Day

    We may not be able to fix what he did but we can fix the fact that the USA has a holiday for someone who never even stepped foot in USA. Let alone someone who was directly involved in so many atrocities.

    I love the fact that more and more people are adopting this holiday.
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    Re: Happy Indigenous Peoples Day

    To me to be honest the average person has no more knowledge about the history and atrocities committed by the Indigenous peoples against each other than they do about those committed by Christobal Columbo. So all this hype that is being spread about the slavery, genocide and such due to Columbus as an excuse to end that holiday existed upon the "America's" prior to his arrival.

    There are recorded legend's of tribe's and nation's at war with entire groups being wiped out. Tales of raids where the dead left trails for days as they fled. Groups being pushed from one area to another by invading nations / tribes. Slavery existed in its own form in the taking of prisoners of war and selling of property. All of this occurring both before the arrival of the first Europeans and after the arrival of the Europeans. Through out the America's, ranging from the Southern America's to the North American' land mass.

    That is not to remove the plague's that arrived with the introduction of European based diseases. That is not to deny the influence's of Christianity and the idea that anyone who was not "Saved" could be placed into a new form of slavery. Heck, it's not even to deny the fact that later European people's used biological warfare against native population's via the form of say "blanket's" with smallpox for instance.

    This idea that seem's to be endorsed by so many people supporting the Indigenous Peoples Day and removing Columbus Day when you talk to them almost reeks of the same idea that many have of an Native Pantheon of gods & Goddesses. Endorsing this idea yet having no true idea of the nature or history of the Indigenous people's and just how many actual Nation's or tribes make up that category within the US alone much less the America's. But they sure focus on the supposed atrocities they want to attribute to Columbus' influence's. I say supposed for he made 4 trips and with each trip more and more "Government", "Business" and "Religion" in the form of people being brought in. Each seeking to turn a profit in their own form and purpose.

    Personally though I always though if we were going to have a holiday it would have been better to have one named after Amerigo Vespucci. Figure the America's were named after him.
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    Re: Happy Indigenous Peoples Day

    Quote Originally Posted by monsno_leedra View Post
    To me to be honest the average person has no more knowledge about the history and atrocities committed by the Indigenous peoples against each other than they do about those committed by Christobal Columbo. So all this hype that is being spread about the slavery, genocide and such due to Columbus as an excuse to end that holiday existed upon the "America's" prior to his arrival.

    There are recorded legend's of tribe's and nation's at war with entire groups being wiped out. Tales of raids where the dead left trails for days as they fled. Groups being pushed from one area to another by invading nations / tribes. Slavery existed in its own form in the taking of prisoners of war and selling of property. All of this occurring both before the arrival of the first Europeans and after the arrival of the Europeans. Through out the America's, ranging from the Southern America's to the North American' land mass.

    That is not to remove the plague's that arrived with the introduction of European based diseases. That is not to deny the influence's of Christianity and the idea that anyone who was not "Saved" could be placed into a new form of slavery. Heck, it's not even to deny the fact that later European people's used biological warfare against native population's via the form of say "blanket's" with smallpox for instance.

    This idea that seem's to be endorsed by so many people supporting the Indigenous Peoples Day and removing Columbus Day when you talk to them almost reeks of the same idea that many have of an Native Pantheon of gods & Goddesses. Endorsing this idea yet having no true idea of the nature or history of the Indigenous people's and just how many actual Nation's or tribes make up that category within the US alone much less the America's. But they sure focus on the supposed atrocities they want to attribute to Columbus' influence's. I say supposed for he made 4 trips and with each trip more and more "Government", "Business" and "Religion" in the form of people being brought in. Each seeking to turn a profit in their own form and purpose.

    Personally though I always though if we were going to have a holiday it would have been better to have one named after Amerigo Vespucci. Figure the America's were named after him.
    I think I would be more tolerant of Columbus Day if Columbus himself was not a brutal ass that Spain removed from his role as a governor and stuck in a cell. When Colonial era Spain decides to live out the trope of "Evil has Standards" because your unnecessary brutality is bad for business then I don't see much need to celebrate you today. Yes, history is full of people that really don't fare well under inspection by modern eyes but Columbus was so pointlessly brutal that his own King and Queen decided he was a problem so I don't really feel a need to be lenient in my views on him. The irritating thing is that while he was never allowed to govern again, Spain eventually set him free.

    The native peoples of the Americas were not by any means moral paragons but I generally gives civilizations more leeway for bad behavior before my judgemental bastard streak appears then I do individuals. I'd rather give the day to the native peoples than to a man who was unnecessarily brutal by the standards of his time and well and truly deserving a lifetime stay in a small concrete box if not a firing squad by the standards of ours.

    Vespucci merits more recognition anyway for realizing that the Americas are new continents.
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