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    #16
    Re: Advice is nice

    Originally posted by Lotus View Post
    Yes I remember my friend once told me about how mushrooms almost act intrinsically as one in a system, it is quite amazing to think that. I am sure there must be many more organic systems like that as well. It sounded from what my friend was saying- that systems of mushrooms almost form psychically together, and across a vast distance as well? Working as one like a beehive almost.
    When we think of fungi, we only think of mushrooms, but in fact, the family of fungi is much wider than that. Many forest systems depend on mycorrhizae to break down and store nutrients in such a manner that it is accessible to the tree. They operate as a large network, all interconnected and dependent on one another to survive. There is also the example of Pando: a vast aspen forest in Utah which is entirely genetically one tree, and the forest is comprised of clone off-shoots its sprouted through the Earth.



    Originally posted by Lotus View Post
    Why would a plant want to inflict harm on a person... would it simply be the way in which two organisms interact with one another, like two differing personalities- some are a positive relationship while others are negative?
    Let's not confuse metaphysics with science. A plant is incapable of 'wanting' to inflict harm. The reason some plants heal, while others hinder, is almost entirely dependent on the chemical, physical, or neurological reaction between your body and the plant you have touched, inhaled, ingested. And a lot of it has to do with dosage. A very small amount of foxglove administered to a patient undergoing cardiac arrest has the ability to save them. A small amount more than that, and it has the ability to stop their heart entirely. Some minimal research suggests that St Johns wort has positive effects on depression, but continued usage causes photosensitivity. Thal can probably chime in with more detail here, but plants (like animals) develop self-defensive mechanisms to predation from predators in their natural habitat, and also self-preservation techniques (such as hard to digest seeds, which a passing animal eats, shits out somewhere else, and then the plant is able to germinate in a new place, helping to ensure it continues to exist in that ecosystem with less of a chance of dying back). So whatever harmful property the plant may have, it may have it to ensure it does not get eaten, because the plant, for lack of a better term, wants to stay alive and reproduce and continue to take nutrients from its environment.
    Last edited by volcaniclastic; 08 Oct 2020, 17:17.


    Mostly art.

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      #17
      Re: Advice is nice

      Just my personal opinion but I think plants are like animals in that you have individual "spirits" but a species may also have a "Super Spirit". In that capacity you might connect to the traits and spirit of the individual entity or you might connect to the larger and broader traits and spirit of the "super spirit" of the species or genre. In some ways it might be seen in the sense of connecting to the mind of an individual or the super mind of a collective or hive.

      In another aspect you might look at it from the aspect of taking a sample from something such as a leaf and twig from a tree. The energy from the tree itself is contained in the twig and leaf as well as all the history of the tree. Carry that leaf and twig away with you yet by having it in your possession you retain a connection to the original tree and can still connect to its source energy. Graft that twig into another tree and you transfer that energy and memory into the new tree and actually combine them together and create something new if they are different types of trees. Yet if they are the same type of tree potentially you've shared the individual memories but the super memory will be the same for the species.

      A lot of people say plants don't talk but if you've ever been in the woods and listen you can hear them talk. Of course it's not human speech but you can hear the forest talk. Different species of trees make different sounds at different times of the year. Same with smaller shrubs and bushes, even how the wind blows across grasses in the meadow will sound different with different grasses. That doesn't even touch upon smells and odors that are associated with them. It's harder to identify but I swear at times there is an electrical like current that passes between different plants that changes as the weather changes. I know oaks tend to attract lightning, sycamores are found with water, holly trees are both male and female, mistletoe is a parasite, things like that.

      With regard to the oak, having my eyes scratched and clearing the land I always got the idea that I was injured because I couldn't ensure they were doing right and doing things properly if I was involved in cutting things myself. It might seem odd but once I changed what I was doing it changed not only how we were clearing the area but even the order we were taking the tree's down. I changed how they were dropping them, were they were dropping them and were we were placing the trash that was to be burnt. My son's one friend I noticed was actually being sort of dangerous and could have gotten someone hurt. In some ways it was almost like your the spokesman for the forest, you can't do that and be cutting also.

      It's sort of hard to explain but cutting the tree's down wasn't the issue. Even death wasn't for life and death is just part of the natural cycle. The land wasn't being destroyed it was just being changed so it was more open meadow with fewer tree's. Basically we were extending the existing meadow and cutting it a bit further up into the base of the mountain and into the hollow.

      Crossing the veil is that barrier between life and death. Where is it? Perhaps a better question is what is it. Many who have a Near Death Experience (NDE) speak of a wall of light or barrier of light they approach and are often met by relatives who've already passed that meet them. In ancient Greece it would probably be the River Styx and Charron the river man and his ferry would carry them across to the opposite shore. Realistically it's that wall where positive life force is stripped away and we take on a negative aspect which is supposed to prevent us from being able to take a living body again I believe. we become shades of our former selves and cross into heaven, hell, the afterlife or whatever our belief system calls it. That or we become earthbound and trapped.

      I personally do not believe it is possible for us to cross the veil of death consciously as a living being. Yes we can travel into the upper or lower dimensions and encounter the dead in the underworld. But we do not encounter them with us being dead ourselves having crossed through the veil through some magical / occult practice. Not to say there are not practices that endorse necromancy like aspects or functions. Though I suppose on some scale you might say any sexually active person has died since people say orgasim mean "little death"

      but journey work and astral travel to other dimensions typically doesn't equate to death work or crossing the veil.
      I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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        #18
        Re: Advice is nice

        Originally posted by Lotus View Post
        .. Why would a plant want to inflict harm on a person..
        Wanted to touch upon this separately. volcaniclastic has already given an excellent response so don't need to repeat to much

        Thing to consider here IMHO is your looking at the difference between a plants spirit and a plants nature or biology / chemistry.

        From a biological / chemical aspect it's strictly impersonal. The very structure of the plant can't be counted on to be the same from leaf to leaf, much less fruit to fruit or root to stem. That doesn't even touch upon one plant to another in the same relative bed much less the same relative vicinity. Then you have to factor in the age or potential ripeness of the fruit. The amount of toxins in the plant, soil, water, etc can change which will influence what is in the plant and how much you might ingest. That also doesn't touch how it will affect / effect you as an individual. But at no point in the cycle is the plant sentient in the sense that it wants to cause harm or not cause harm. It is just a plant.

        From a spiritual aspect your getting into more of an animistic concept. The notion that all things are related to each other and on some level connected. Even into the idea that for every illness there is a cure to be found, usually within the plant kingdom. That is usually found through both the chemical / biological nature of the plants and through their "spiritual" nature which connects to the spiritual nature of mankind. That spiritual nature being the inter-conectedness of all things. By healing the spiritual body then the physical body will follow sort of thing.

        But that is where knowing the spirit comes in, and knowing the body comes in. A lot of times people are going to be growing the specific plants they are going to be working with.
        I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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          #19
          Re: Advice is nice

          Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
          Wanted to touch upon this separately. volcaniclastic has already given an excellent response so don't need to repeat to much

          Thing to consider here IMHO is your looking at the difference between a plants spirit and a plants nature or biology / chemistry.

          From a biological / chemical aspect it's strictly impersonal. The very structure of the plant can't be counted on to be the same from leaf to leaf, much less fruit to fruit or root to stem. That doesn't even touch upon one plant to another in the same relative bed much less the same relative vicinity. Then you have to factor in the age or potential ripeness of the fruit. The amount of toxins in the plant, soil, water, etc can change which will influence what is in the plant and how much you might ingest. That also doesn't touch how it will affect / effect you as an individual. But at no point in the cycle is the plant sentient in the sense that it wants to cause harm or not cause harm. It is just a plant.

          From a spiritual aspect your getting into more of an animistic concept. The notion that all things are related to each other and on some level connected. Even into the idea that for every illness there is a cure to be found, usually within the plant kingdom. That is usually found through both the chemical / biological nature of the plants and through their "spiritual" nature which connects to the spiritual nature of mankind. That spiritual nature being the inter-conectedness of all things. By healing the spiritual body then the physical body will follow sort of thing.

          But that is where knowing the spirit comes in, and knowing the body comes in. A lot of times people are going to be growing the specific plants they are going to be working with.
          Don't misunderstand me - I still have reverence for the natural world and plants in particular. It's just the awe I feel at a waterfall, for instance, has nothing to do with a deity, and everything to do with how quickly it could kill me.

          I am but a small being on this giant earth, and it is still worth worshipping, but I don't really believe in each being having a spirit...exactly. I still talk to animals and plants and I imagine they can understand me to an extent, but my worship doesn't often stray into the metaphysical.


          Mostly art.

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            #20
            Re: Advice is nice

            Originally posted by volcaniclastic View Post
            Don't misunderstand me - I still have reverence for the natural world and plants in particular. It's just the awe I feel at a waterfall, for instance, has nothing to do with a deity, and everything to do with how quickly it could kill me.

            I am but a small being on this giant earth, and it is still worth worshipping, but I don't really believe in each being having a spirit...exactly. I still talk to animals and plants and I imagine they can understand me to an extent, but my worship doesn't often stray into the metaphysical.
            Oh no misunderstanding and I pretty much agree generally.

            I look at the world and see it in sort of a neutral aspect I suppose. I see the forest for its beauty but also know I can die there real easy. Same with the river or waterfall. Both are beautiful on the surface but one false step on my part and it can take my life. Yet neither is due to malice or wilful purpose on their part it is simply a fact of nature and usually circumstance or construction.

            Plants are hard to put into an idea of spirit with regard to animism I think. In many instances an individual plant lives and dies and in that capacity we think of it as an individual. Because of it being an individual I suppose we also think of it having some idea of a "self" or "Spirit". Yet that "self" is nothing more than a spark compared to a higher life forms "spirit". But still a spark non-the-less IMHO. I think where it gets crazy though is someone says you take a flower from the plant and you take part of its spark. Yet the flower was always made to be removed from the plant in most instances with its petals falling away. So the spark was never really contained within the petals. Even the fruit, if there was one, wouldn't be the plants spark, it would be a new spark waiting to ignite once it started to grow. if it never grows then the spark never ignites, so there is no life spark present and no spark from the parent plant either. But people will collect the dropped fruit ie acorn for instance saying it holds the "spirit" of the plant. But that were it an animal would only be seen as an empty carcass.

            To be honest I tend to float back and forth with regards to animism. One side believes that all things have a spirit while the other side believes that only the larger group has the spirit and smaller aspects of the group share that spirit. That's not an exact break down of course as there are variations but its the general gist. Plants tend to fall into that larger group spirit with them sharing the spirit aspects. Though I expect a Herbologist or Herbalist might disagree with me.

            - - - Updated - - -

            Originally posted by volcaniclastic View Post
            Don't misunderstand me - I still have reverence for the natural world and plants in particular. It's just the awe I feel at a waterfall, for instance, has nothing to do with a deity, and everything to do with how quickly it could kill me.

            I am but a small being on this giant earth, and it is still worth worshipping, but I don't really believe in each being having a spirit...exactly. I still talk to animals and plants and I imagine they can understand me to an extent, but my worship doesn't often stray into the metaphysical.
            Oh no misunderstanding and I pretty much agree generally.

            I look at the world and see it in sort of a neutral aspect I suppose. I see the forest for its beauty but also know I can die there real easy. Same with the river or waterfall. Both are beautiful on the surface but one false step on my part and it can take my life. Yet neither is due to malice or wilful purpose on their part it is simply a fact of nature and usually circumstance or construction.

            Plants are hard to put into an idea of spirit with regard to animism I think. In many instances an individual plant lives and dies and in that capacity we think of it as an individual. Because of it being an individual I suppose we also think of it having some idea of a "self" or "Spirit". Yet that "self" is nothing more than a spark compared to a higher life forms "spirit". But still a spark non-the-less IMHO. I think where it gets crazy though is someone says you take a flower from the plant and you take part of its spark. Yet the flower was always made to be removed from the plant in most instances with its petals falling away. So the spark was never really contained within the petals. Even the fruit, if there was one, wouldn't be the plants spark, it would be a new spark waiting to ignite once it started to grow. if it never grows then the spark never ignites, so there is no life spark present and no spark from the parent plant either. But people will collect the dropped fruit ie acorn for instance saying it holds the "spirit" of the plant. But that were it an animal would only be seen as an empty carcass.

            To be honest I tend to float back and forth with regards to animism. One side believes that all things have a spirit while the other side believes that only the larger group has the spirit and smaller aspects of the group share that spirit. That's not an exact break down of course as there are variations but its the general gist. Plants tend to fall into that larger group spirit with them sharing the spirit aspects. Though I expect a Herbologist or Herbalist might disagree with me.
            I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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              #21
              Re: Advice is nice

              So from what you have both suggested to a degree, plants have certain evolutionary properties which help to propagate their survival but the properties of certain plants also have medicinal, healing or consciousness-altering properties which can be of benefit or detriment to humans. People can ingest plants for recreational use, though these plants can also be used for spiritual purposes as well and promote an evolution of self-understanding. In a way that could depend on a person's intents and purposes, their attitudes and sincerity as well as what volcaniclastic spoke of when saying it is dependant on the chemical, physical, neurological relationship between person/plant.

              Do you think that the effects plants have on humans are a mere by-product of each plant's properties, a complete co-incidence working with no path or purpose, ie the effect is not an intention? Or would every living organism exist in a symbiotic relationship, constantly evolving, revolving and responding to environmental changes as one with a sort of primal intent of mutual benefit? I don't know if this is exactly what I want to say, maybe it would be more precise to ask whether you feel nature has a purpose above and beyond the self preservation of each unique species, or whether nature is aimless in it's awe-inspiring parts/totality?


              Also just to rewind a little bit... When you spoke about celestial and chthonic offerings, I had a look around on the internet particularly about the latter, and it suggested that offerings can be offered in the form of being buried. Again it is difficult to know what to believe and not to believe from random sites, so I was just wondering what type of things can be offered, a suitable location, frequency of offering, whether rituals are performed prior to the offering, or anything that you would like to share on that really.

              My name is Michael by the way, or Mike or anything that fits. Monsno_leedra I believe from what you wrote previously, that you have spent some time in Scotland... I hope you had the luck of staying here on the one day of the year that we actually get to see the sun through the clouds!

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                #22
                Re: Advice is nice

                =Lotus;248368]My name is Michael by the way, or Mike or anything that fits. Monsno_leedra I believe from what you wrote previously, that you have spent some time in Scotland... I hope you had the luck of staying here on the one day of the year that we actually get to see the sun through the clouds!
                I was stationed there for just about 2 years. About halfway between the towns of Aberdeen and Dundee on the east coast near the town of Montrose. The actual city was rather small so probably not well known. Got to see quite a bit but never as much as I'd have liked to have seen. Always wanted to get out to the Isle of Lewis as that is where Clann Morrison is supposed to have originated from due to being shipwrecked there. But alas never did make it there. My mother's family descended from the Morrison's and we had some genealogy of them that traced back to the battle of Londonberry in Ireland and a bit back to Scotland before that.

                It's like the story I mentioned of the two entities fighting in my room happened while I was in scotland. I talked to an older practitioner after that soldier (knight?) attached himself to my wife then my son as a protector. He felt that my arrival allowed the restless spirit to complete a vow to serve and protect one of my ancestors by protecting me and my family.

                Lots of things happened while I was in Scotland.

                So from what you have both suggested to a degree, plants have certain evolutionary properties which help to propagate their survival but the properties of certain plants also have medicinal, healing or consciousness-altering properties which can be of benefit or detriment to humans. People can ingest plants for recreational use, though these plants can also be used for spiritual purposes as well and promote an evolution of self-understanding. In a way that could depend on a person's intents and purposes, their attitudes and sincerity as well as what volcaniclastic spoke of when saying it is dependant on the chemical, physical, neurological relationship between person/plant.
                Personally I'd say plants are no different than any other life form in that they evolve to survive. Just MHO here but anything that is ingested can cause a consciousness altering condition. It can be due to chemicals, it can be to do over indulgence or even underindulgence of something that causes the altered state. Eat to much and you can cause horrible dreams and visions regardless of what it was you ate. Eat to little and you can cause the same conditions due to starvation. So it's more than just the individual properties of psychotropic type drugs that can cause mind altering conditions. That doesn't even touch upon the individuals body chemistry and mental state which also plays a role in all of it.

                Then there is the inconsistency of the plant(s) themselves. The same level of potency is seldom found from berry to berry or leaf to leaf much less plant to plant. There is sort of a baseline in most instances I suppose but it is not set in stone. Sort of like onions, usually they have a set level of taste with a given variety but even in the same garden you get some that are super strong or weaker than others. Yet you can't really say why, it just happens.

                Do you think that the effects plants have on humans are a mere by-product of each plant's properties, a complete co-incidence working with no path or purpose, ie the effect is not an intention? Or would every living organism exist in a symbiotic relationship, constantly evolving, revolving and responding to environmental changes as one with a sort of primal intent of mutual benefit? I don't know if this is exactly what I want to say, maybe it would be more precise to ask whether you feel nature has a purpose above and beyond the self preservation of each unique species, or whether nature is aimless in it's awe-inspiring parts/totality?
                This one is harder to answer. On one level I think we are all inter-related and what happens to one happens to all. So inversely what is developed for one is developed for all. ie a plant that is toxic to one animal will be toxic to some degree to all animals and man is an animal after all. Yet a plant that is beneficial to animals will be beneficial to all animals again man is an animal after all. That is nature's way of maintaining balance within the larger kingdom. But it is more of a base level design and not in favor of one over another so doesn't serve a unique species and ultimately wipes out species without regard for it.

                Yet I think many organism exist in symbiotic relationships with each other, growing and evolving.

                Also just to rewind a little bit... When you spoke about celestial and chthonic offerings, I had a look around on the internet particularly about the latter, and it suggested that offerings can be offered in the form of being buried. Again it is difficult to know what to believe and not to believe from random sites, so I was just wondering what type of things can be offered, a suitable location, frequency of offering, whether rituals are performed prior to the offering, or anything that you would like to share on that really.
                This is my practice and belief so it might be different from others.

                Celestial libations and offerings are on raised or elevated surfaces above the ground. It might be an actual altar or it could be on a rock, spun into the air. But it is above the ground. Libations (liquids) are poured upon the surface or are placed into a cup /chalice or even poured into a top like device where its spun and the liquid is spun out. Solid offerings depending upon my intent will either be transmuted by flame or will be left as a solid upon the rock / altar.

                Chthonic libations and offerings are given in a depression or hole beneath the surface of the earth. I might occasionally use a rock face but most times it is barren earth only. Sometimes I will make a smaller opening to the side of the major depression to pour libations into. However that is more of a getting the sensation to do so at the time of creation more than a routine. I'll line the depression with flammable material and light it then place the offerings upon the flames to be transmuted into energy by the flames. I'll add more combustible material to the fire as the ritual / ceremony goes to ensure the offering is fully consumed.

                For the fire I tend to use oak when I can get it. I also use cedar as in my practice it is also used for purification and sweeping away negativity. I try to let the fire burn down until the coals have completely consumed themselves as much as possible.

                Frequency - that's harder to answer because I tend to do them more as the mood strikes me or as things seem important. I don't believe in doing things simply because a calendar says so. that seems false and shallow to me. It's sort of like ok its day X so do this and I think the divinities and spirits recognize that. I'm more the type that I wake up and think today I'm going to do this and do so. Then I might go 6 months and do nothing fancy then wake up and go ok now it's time to do something super special. yet other times I'll have a sense of an important ritual / ceremony that needs to be done and it will take shape in my mind for days as it forms and unfolds. I'll get every aspect of it via dreams and mini visions that come to me and put it all together and know it needs to be done on a certain day at a certain time. Those are usually complex and require lots of planning and gathering of material to set up and may take days to actually perform. Had one of those that took a week to perform with aspects that went off three times a day.

                For me I've found that the offerings & Libations have tended to be done during the actual ritual / ceremony itself. In most instances the structure of the ritual / ceremony has basically been setting things in place prior to dusk (ie getting wood, candles, ground covering, etc), then taking a shower and purifying myself plus meditation / prayer, around 10:30 going out to my selected site and doing some more meditations / prayers, opening myself to the landspirits and the elements and night, starting the fire i'll work by (not the one I'll be working with) but it will be the one that will establish my boundaries while I also start to invite those spirits that will observe and call the divinites and others. I tend to use tobacco as an offering to the local spirits and toss it on the fire plus I toss cedar on the fire as well as use a branch to sweep the area. Then I'll decide if I'm calling celestial or chthonic entities or both and start making offerings as well as light the fire in the depression and on the raised platform from my main fire. I'll go on through out the night and into the next morning as long as it takes. usually to about 1:30 or 2 is the norm for me.

                The location is someplace i've chosen that on my property. I prefer the forest and as close to water as I can get near a spring is my prime choice when possible. For me that creates a juncture of three elements water, earth and air forming a Y shaped meeting place with fire forming the 4th elemental point when I ignite it. From a safety aspect having water present keeps things safe. Water is also my dominate element as my sign is neptune, my birth element is water (pisces), then on the medicine wheel I fall under the Frog which is water even though I fall under the Wolf or cougar as the specific clann. Water pretty much is every where for me.

                Typical offerings:

                Honey - It's eternal and never goes bad. I only use real honey not the sugar added processed stuff. It also ties into the idea of ambrosia the drink of the gods.

                Milk - It's the source of life and mother's drink. It represents the Devine Feminine and motherhood

                Water - Primordial source of all life and sustainer of life

                Salt - Another primordial element and associated with purification

                Blood - dedications & oathings so not used at all ceremonies / rituals

                Eggs - left in offering but not burnt (usually for the dead) represent unrealized life

                Beans - left in offering but not burnt (usually for the dead)

                fruit - left as a generic offering (apples usually)

                beer - libation

                Tobacco - burnt in fire (prefer raw but have used processed as in cigarettes)

                things i've written or created occasionally

                I do not tend to use meat as if it is not fully consumed it rots and leaves a putrid smell behind. Seeing as I tend to use the same spots over it leaves a negative energy there.
                I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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                  #23
                  Re: Advice is nice

                  Originally posted by Lotus View Post
                  .. Also just to rewind a little bit... When you spoke about celestial and chthonic offerings, I had a look around on the internet particularly about the latter, and it suggested that offerings can be offered in the form of being buried. Again it is difficult to know what to believe and not to believe from random sites, so I was just wondering what type of things can be offered, a suitable location, frequency of offering, whether rituals are performed prior to the offering, or anything that you would like to share on that really. ..!
                  Something else that popped into my head that might show up in your searches. That is the idea of offerings that pertain to things pertaining to chthonic entities that fall into the category of vinegar bottles, witch bottles, witch jars, and defixiones (curse tablets).

                  While defixiones are the best know for calling upon both the dead and chthonic deities to exact revenge / justice for someone they are not the only ones. Typically they were written in lead or some other soft metal, rolled up and either buried in a graveyard or dropped down a well so they would be close to the dead. They usually stated what they wanted the beings to do to the person being identified on the curse tablet. The curse could be written on bowls, rolled up tablets, or other things. Still have them done today in various capacities. Though in some ways you can have people who use actual graveyard dirt vice actually burying things in a graveyard itself.

                  Your vinegar jars, witch bottles, witch jars, or similar things can employ the idea of using the dead or chthonic entities but they don't have to. Yet depending upon the practitioner they can either be buried under the ground, placed within a structure like a wall or hung from a string in the air. What goes into them though will vary from person to person though many tend to have similar contents such as urine, needles, broken glass, picture of a person its directed at, sometimes an actual written spell with names of who is being summoned or asked to do some deed, sometimes string, mirrors or broken mirror fragments. But they are sealed sometimes with a wax seal and perhaps with some sort of sigil or markings unique to the creator. There may or maynot have been other things done during the creation process depending upon ones particular "pathway" specifics.
                  I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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