Ask a Mormon

[thalassa]

Re: Ask a Mormon

And I found another interesting Mormon thing in my blog feed, on the Heavenly Mother

[Dez]

Re: Ask a Mormon

Just saw this today...

I've been seeing this in my feed...and I have mixed feelings.

I love the idea. I love that they did that. I hope that none of them get in trouble, or have bishops trying to accuse them of being gay, now. Here's another article, if you're interested: http://mcwilleyfactor.com/2012/06/04...ride-festival/

I want to see more things like the gay pride parade happen. I don't want it to become a token thing...it was a couple hundred people out of around 2.4 million Mormons in Utah. I don't want to see people using it, saying, "see, the church likes gay people", having it become something like the "I don't hate gays, I have a gay friend!" argument that politicians toss around.

I think part of why I just can't get as excited about this as I would have once is that it's airing right at the same time a story is starting to hit the news about a gay couple in Gilbert Az, who are being bullied right out of their home by their neighbors. Gilbert is another majority LDS town, so much so that they have issues with people calling the bishop or stake president instead of reporting gang violence to the police. I've only seen that first link point out that Gilbert is majority Mormon. I think a lot of other sources are worried about being accused of being anti-Mormon. I don't know, though. If I were to say that none of my relatives would have gone and marched in that parade, I'd be accused of being anti-Mormon.

And I found another interesting Mormon thing in my blog feed, on the Heavenly Mother

I've seen writings by Caroline Kline on the blog Feminst Mormon Housewives before. I have a lot of respect for the slow change she is trying to encourage, even though I find it frustraiting. It's also uncomfortable reading for me, as it hits directly on one of the major "ah-hah's" that led to me finally letting go.

The Mormon Heavenly Mother is silent. Those who have claimed to receive promptings from here have been either pushed back into silence or excommunicated, as that would break the male chain of authority. Mormon women who hold onto her treat her as a divine mystery, and often as proof that their sacred role pathway to divinity is to be completely in the background. It would be wrong and unlike her to desire to lead or speak up in any way. My MIL describes her as the silence that fills edges...an idea totally at odds with the personalities of most of the women I know, Mormon or otherwise. A disturbing idea if that is the only available model of perfect, desirable, femininity, not one of many.

I ultimately disagree with her professor's assessment of the root of the problem being Heavenly Mother as a mother. With all due respect, he has never stood in the final stages of temple ceremony with his face covered. He has not been told that not speaking about Heavenly Mother, not knowing her name(or names) is a safety measure Heavenly Father put in place to "protect her"(if she is his equal, why would she need protecting?). That his ultimate goal In this life is to be quiet, faithful without question, and industrious, so that in the next life he can keep (or be given to) a faithful spouse, and bear his children for eternity, quietly and faithfully, the sacred silence around the edges of God's music.

[Siloh]

Re: Ask a Mormon

Hey Dez.

So I've been attempting to improve my Hebrew reading and writing recently (!בוקר טוב, דז) and have been coming across random Mormon stuff. Among them, an evangelist Christian blogger who's been doing a series on the LDS. So, yeah, sources. But he sparked a debate with one post that I'm curious about, and you're the lady I trust on the subject.

1) WTH is with "reformed Egyptian"? Apparently the plates were written in it instead of Greek or Hebrew? Because Hebrew takes up too much space (which might be a fair argument, since Hebrew uses letters not symbols)

2) Joseph Smith was a treasure hunter? I thought he was like, the world's most pious teenager?

3) Joseph Smith died by gunfire?

Sorry for all these. They're probably pretty run-of-the-mill don't-believe-LDS questions, but I've really only read the LDS material for information about the LDS. And this thread.


Hope you're having a blessed Friday.

[Dez]

Re: Ask a Mormon

Hey Siloh!

Actually, those are some great questions...I don't think we've ever covered any of those on this thread or it's predecessors!

Reformed Egyptian: Hmm...there are very few examples of what Joseph Smith actually meant by that, as no one other then him actually saw the plates(big disclaimer--Mormons disagree with that statement, pointing to the witnesses who signed the beginning of the Book of Mormon, however, original texts indicate that those men saw them "with their spiritual eyes", a rather common distinction in early LDS Church history). Here is one very sincere Mormon apologists take on the issue, if you're interested. The comments are worth reading. Here's another, including the examples Joseph Smith wrote down and showed to others. The argument is that the Book of Mormon was written in a text that was neither Hebrew or Egyptian(too early for Greek: supposedly Nephi begins some 50 years pre-Babylonian Diaspora), but based on Egyptian language. The specific reference to Reformed Egyptian only occurs once. At the very end of the Book of Mormon (Mormon 9:32) where Mormon, getting old and preparing to die talks about how if the plates had been large enough, he would have written the text, a compilation of his people's history, in Hebrew, but it took up too much space.


It's late, so I'll need to cover the other two tomorrow.

[thalassa]

Re: Ask a Mormon

Dez, did you see this yet?

[Dez]

Re: Ask a Mormon

Ok, things have been crazy, and I've tried to respond to this twice only to have my response eaten

First, to finish up with Siloh's questions:

You are never going to find info about Joseph Smith treasure hunting in LDS Church sources. The closest you get is him mentioning some youthful indiscretions in the account of the First Vision that is in the triple combination with the Pearl of Great Price and Doctrine and Covenants. Anything else is considered the work of evil men trying to stop the sacred work of the church. There are arrest-records, however, from 1826 and 1830 for Joseph Smith. Those include allegations of treasure hunting, disorderly conduct, and glass-looking.

What another former Mormon has to say about the evidence: http://mormonscripturestudies.com/ch/dv/1826.asp

What FAIR, a Mormon apologetic organization says: http://www.fairlds.org/fair-conferen...-life-in-court

Joseph Smith was later imprisoned with other church leaders for treason against the United states. Once in Liberty Missouri, and a second time in Carthage Illinois. This second time, a mob of some 200 local men stormed the jail. Weapons had been smuggled in to the held men by sympathizers, and so the whole thing turned into a gun fight. As Smith moved to fire out the window, he was shot once from the front, and twice from the back, pushing him out the window. He and his brother Hyrum, who also died in the altercation, are considered Martyrs.

Thal, I had seen that!

It actually led to a lot of thought by L. We celebrated our Independence Day this year by putting in the formal paperwork required to get our names and those of our children formally removed from church records.

[novalayne]

Re: Ask a Mormon

So I've been reading your question threads for 2 or 3 years now (maybe even longer?) and I'm planning to go to the open house for the temple opening in my city this fall. What should I wear to it? It says "Modest dress is requested", but I feel like their idea of modest of dress might be more conservative than mine. Also would it be really weird if I, a 16 year old girl, went by myself? None of my family members/friends would want to go cause they don't see a point. (it also might be worth noting most people think i'm in college, so I might not be questioned as much).

And then for a question about Mormonism itself, how is rape viewed within the church? Like how are men that commit rape treated/disciplined and how are women that have been raped treated (in particular those that were virgins or were raped by their husbands)

[Siloh]

Re: Ask a Mormon

Hey Dez, thanks for those sources on those mysterious assertions about Joe Smith. The reformed Egyptian thing is still kind of messing with my head, but, you know, golden plates, Jesus in America... Sometimes I feel like I'm stopping a Sleeping Beauty recitation to ask how the castle didn't crack their heads open while falling asleep while ignoring the whole magic bit. No offense meant there. It's the same deal with the questions I often have about Judaism; I'm poking into the logistics of miracles in ways they weren't necessarily meant to answer to.

Waiting with baited breath for your response to your fan below. You should go big league blog with this stuff!

[Siloh]

Re: Ask a Mormon

http://http://www.google.com/url?sa=...pw6aqzvU4ueM7w

...Could not figure out embedded linking. This is a New Yorker article from a couple of weeks ago entitled "I, Nephi." It sort of goes through the history of Mormonism and relates its history and culture as a purely American religion and how that has become topical, I guess you could say, increasingly in recent history. Frankly, as a New Yorker addict, I think this was one of the more unfocused essays I've read. His thesis seemed to sprawl. But I thought I'd link it.

[Dez]

Re: Ask a Mormon

So I've been reading your question threads for 2 or 3 years now (maybe even longer?) and I'm planning to go to the open house for the temple opening in my city this fall. What should I wear to it? It says "Modest dress is requested", but I feel like their idea of modest of dress might be more conservative than mine. Also would it be really weird if I, a 16 year old girl, went by myself? None of my family members/friends would want to go cause they don't see a point. (it also might be worth noting most people think i'm in college, so I might not be questioned as much).

And then for a question about Mormonism itself, how is rape viewed within the church? Like how are men that commit rape treated/disciplined and how are women that have been raped treated (in particular those that were virgins or were raped by their husbands)

Wow...you've really been reading it for this long? I'm slightly speechless, and flattered.

Mormon conservative attire for women is this: A top that isn't body-conforming or sheer, does not show cleavage, and covers the shoulders. It should not pull up high enough to expose your middle, either. A skirt for something like this, at your knee or below, with no slit going higher. This is why many Mormon women just wear jumpers and the like. Lately they've also been trying to go back to panty-hose, with quite a bit of polite backlash. Just wear nice shoes or sandals, no flip-flops, and you should be fine. They'll have you wear little shoe-covers, most likely.

I'm sorry it took me so long to answer your other question, but I had to think about it for a bit.

You see...I was sexually assaulted by a date when I was was a new college freshman.

I can tell you what the official stance is, how rape is considered a horrible crime, etc, etc, and then I could tell you what I, personally have experienced. I wrote about it recently, and decided this morning to upload that bit to my personal blog as my response to your question: http://heavenlymundaneum.blogspot.co...-hold-her.html

You might also find these links helpful:

http://www.askgramps.org/how-does-mormon-church-view-victims-rape-incest-and-sexual/

http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_2935199

http://www.lds4u.com/lesson4/chastity.htm

The only place where the term "rape" is used in the church handbook of instructions (the special book that teaches lay ministry how to do their job as bishop, etc) is in the segment on abortion, where it says that abortion is only acceptable in cases of rape, incest, or because the life of the mother is in danger. http://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared...g.pdf?lang=eng

Hey Dez, thanks for those sources on those mysterious assertions about Joe Smith. The reformed Egyptian thing is still kind of messing with my head, but, you know, golden plates, Jesus in America... Sometimes I feel like I'm stopping a Sleeping Beauty recitation to ask how the castle didn't crack their heads open while falling asleep while ignoring the whole magic bit. No offense meant there. It's the same deal with the questions I often have about Judaism; I'm poking into the logistics of miracles in ways they weren't necessarily meant to answer to.

Waiting with baited breath for your response to your fan below. You should go big league blog with this stuff!

Heh, thanks There's actually a lot out there, if you know where to look. I am outspoken on here, but something bigger would potentially hurt my family, as L and my families are still firmly LDS, and would also end up with a lot of people claiming that I'm "anti-mormon". It's not worth the stress and drama, and hurt bystanders. I'm glad that I can answer you guys, though

I also find what you said above rather interesting. I wonder whether that's part of why there's a huge split I've seen. There are a small handful of ex-mormons who get in a big fight with a bishop or something, and become Baptist, or Jewish, or Seventh-Day Adventist. Most, though, become pagan, or agnostic, or athiest. It's hard to take any of it seriously after being forced to examine such fundamentals. Treating the Bible as a literal historic document, in particular...it's almost impossible without a lot of mental gymnasics.

Reminds me of an analogy L used the other day: know that moment when the balloon pops, and you know it will never be a balloon again. A lot of the Liberal Mormons I know seem to have a "very useful pot" a la Winnie the Pooh. They know the balloon is popped, but they keep pulling it out and looking at it, then putting it away again. I just couldn't do that. It was mentally and emotionally exhausting.

http://http://www.google.com/url?sa=...pw6aqzvU4ueM7w

...Could not figure out embedded linking. This is a New Yorker article from a couple of weeks ago entitled "I, Nephi." It sort of goes through the history of Mormonism and relates its history and culture as a purely American religion and how that has become topical, I guess you could say, increasingly in recent history. Frankly, as a New Yorker addict, I think this was one of the more unfocused essays I've read. His thesis seemed to sprawl. But I thought I'd link it.

I need to look into embedding again, too. I left long enough this spring and summer that I forgot all my coding for this site

Would you try to cut and paste again, please? That is a bad link... ah, I remember: [url=whatever the url is] what you want to say [/ url]

Just get rid of my spaces.

[Dez]

Re: Ask a Mormon

Had this show up on my FB feed:

Why Mitt Romney does not live his religion .

[thalassa]

Re: Ask a Mormon

An interesting blog post I ran across

[Dez]

Re: Ask a Mormon

Wow....Thanks Thal. If you didn't take a look at the comments on the original post he was linking, I'd strongly suggest it.

[Pallas]

Re: Ask a Mormon

I apologize if this has been asked before!

My fiance worked for a Mormon man in one company and now has moved to another company owned by the other man's cousin. He's a very devout Mormon (refusing to work on Sunday and everything) and we associate with them a lot. The other man that works in the company is very Atheist but this guy's friend. But he often likes to point out flaws in the Mormon faith (behind his back.)

So I was wondering the Mormon answer to this: I know that the Mormon faith is opposed to tea and coffee, stimulants pretty much. But I see many Mormons drinking soda and other caffeinated things like crazy and say "They didn't say soda, so it's okay to drink." Do all Mormons take that in the literal sense, or was it intended to ban all things that are like coffee and tea?

[Dez]

Re: Ask a Mormon

Hey Pallas,

I am so sorry that it has taken me so long to respond to this! Please forgive me--I've been needing to deal with some rather serious personal issues during the past year, and so my presence on the board has been spotty. I saw this back before some recent medical issues, but had the forum delete my response.

Here's the deal on that aspect of the Word of Wisdom: back in the 1830's-40's, it was very trendy in certain religious circles to shun tea and coffee. Originally it was simply seen as advice(notice verse two, where it says "not by command or constraint"), and most people were rather casual with it. It was Prohibition that changed that. During that period of time, in support of the cultural shift it became a requirement for a temple recommend to follow it. Most Mormons are still rather casual about other parts of that section(like eating meat only "in winter or in time of fasting"). Since soda drinks didn't exist yet when it was written, it's considered a loophole, and I could find half a dozen quotes by General Authoritites of the church pointing one direction or the other.

Within individual families, it can vary. My family didn't drink caffeinated soda, and you can find non-caffeinated versions of many brands( like Braggs root beer) in Utah that are unusual elsewhere. Other families will use it like "medicine", only consuming it when they have a headache, while others consider it free game. Others have a very strict interpretation don't consume anything with caffeine, even chocolate. One of the more amusing results of this cultural oddity is that while BYU doesn't serve caffeine anywhere on campus, the student consumption of energy drinks often neared medically hazardous while I was a student.