Ask a Mormon

[Dez]

Re: Ask a Mormon

I would generally agree with the guys on this one, D.

I think, too, though, that Mormonism places an unusually high emphasis on emotion. For example, missionaries are taught to do their best to generate strong emotions talking about love of Christ, and how you love your family and want to be with them forever. When a potential convert then mirrors those emotions, they are pointed out to them as the Holy Ghost telling them that the LDS church is true.

While I believe in emotion and intuition as very powerful tools of deity, I think that logic and empiric evidence should also agree.

[calfhill]

Re: Ask a Mormon

Looking back that is exactly what happened to my family when we converted. I was 17 and got really excited about the whole concept. Holy Spirit, or excitement at something new? Now I realize that it was the latter. At the time, I bought the whole package.
Both of my younger brothers served on missions and could probably shed a lot more light on the subject than I can, but one is still rabid in his beliefs and the other, who has finally come to terms with being gay, would likely still be uncomfortable in a Pagan Forum.

[Dez]

Re: Ask a Mormon

[quote author=calfhill link=topic=219.msg25000#msg25000 date=1293422097]
Looking back that is exactly what happened to my family when we converted. I was 17 and got really excited about the whole concept. Holy Spirit, or excitement at something new? Now I realize that it was the latter. At the time, I bought the whole package.
Both of my younger brothers served on missions and could probably shed a lot more light on the subject than I can, but one is still rabid in his beliefs and the other, who has finally come to terms with being gay, would likely still be uncomfortable in a Pagan Forum.
[/quote]

That can be really rough, calfhill. My husband's older brother is gay, he came out shortly after his mission.

It really breaks my heart that after the initial shock, his family tried really hard to be supportive of him, but that changed with the whole Prop 8 thing. Since then, the church has started coming down really, really hard on homosexual behavior again, and leaders have started insisting again that it can be changed "if one turns to Christ" etc, etc...I just don't understand that, and it makes me sad and angry.

It's the other reason I took a big step back. For a long time I thought that I could just try to be myself, and make it agree, but it was more then a bit of a shock when last fall in particular I'm hearing talks in Conference where leaders are implying that if you have any "same-sex attraction", and aren't willing to go to a (Mormon) councilor, share it with your (untrained, lay) bishop, and submit to whatever they think you should do to heal, that you don't love God enough and are sinning.

I have a lot of love for the people in the church, still. I'm proud of my heritage, and the things those people suffered and went through to keep the LDS church running, how they stood up for what they believed in. But this is turning into a witch hunt.

[calfhill]

Re: Ask a Mormon

I admire your ability to still have a lot of love for those people. I cannot share that feeling.
I'm not bitter; because, I don't believe in the church anymore, so... So what about their beliefs.
And yet, I still feel compelled to comment. So, what does that say about me?
Anyway, I do enjoy these conversations.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Ask a Mormon

[quote author=Deseret link=topic=219.msg24985#msg24985 date=1293416932]
I would generally agree with the guys on this one, D.

I think, too, though, that Mormonism places an unusually high emphasis on emotion. For example, missionaries are taught to do their best to generate strong emotions talking about love of Christ, and how you love your family and want to be with them forever. When a potential convert then mirrors those emotions, they are pointed out to them as the Holy Ghost telling them that the LDS church is true.

While I believe in emotion and intuition as very powerful tools of deity, I think that logic and empiric evidence should also agree.
[/quote]

Does Mormon doctrine make room for strong emotion that is not generated by the Holy Spirit? The high emotion focus here leaves room for entertaining (well for me, anyway) disputes if there aren't some additional factors in play.

[calfhill]

Re: Ask a Mormon

Personally, I would think not. If you are a "good" Mormon, there is no room for disputes. I've tried, many years ago, to express thoughts outside recognized doctrine and been, mostly, shot down.
I will; however, step back and await Deseret's response. I think she has a better grasp of Mormonisms than I do.

[Dumuzi]

Re: Ask a Mormon

[quote author=Deseret link=topic=219.msg24985#msg24985 date=1293416932]
I would generally agree with the guys on this one, D.

I think, too, though, that Mormonism places an unusually high emphasis on emotion. For example, missionaries are taught to do their best to generate strong emotions talking about love of Christ, and how you love your family and want to be with them forever. When a potential convert then mirrors those emotions, they are pointed out to them as the Holy Ghost telling them that the LDS church is true.

While I believe in emotion and intuition as very powerful tools of deity, I think that logic and empiric evidence should also agree.
[/quote]

Thanks for the answer Deseret and others!

I'll keep that in mind if I run into any missionaries. Though I don't think there's a chance for that!

And I do agree with you.

[Dez]

Re: Ask a Mormon

[quote author=calfhill link=topic=219.msg25026#msg25026 date=1293429086]
I admire your ability to still have a lot of love for those people. I cannot share that feeling.
I'm not bitter; because, I don't believe in the church anymore, so... So what about their beliefs.
And yet, I still feel compelled to comment. So, what does that say about me?
Anyway, I do enjoy these conversations.
[/quote]

That's kind of you calfhill...I do think that a part of that is a difference in training, and the culture that we were raised in, as much as anything, though. As a woman raised in a multi-generational family within the church, the message that I learned was that my value and worth in the world lay in my ability to 1) be sweet and attractive, 2) obey authority and not make waves, and 3) catch the right sort of man to insure that we as a couple progressed to higher and higher callings within the church. Oh, and have lots of babies...did I mention babies? The pressure is often a bit different, and harder to adjust to as a man, especially with priesthood responsibilities thrown into the mix.

There are some people that the above makes extremely happy. It has an element of certainty and security that is hard to match. As long as you are the right sort of person, and do your job, everything just falls into place.

I think that the problem happens when you have people who, for one reason or another, don't fit. Instead of making allowances for that, or other acceptable paths, the church tends to say that if you don't walk this one, narrow path, you're in trouble, and if the person doesn't promptly self-regulate back into the fold, then attempts to help them are often insulting at best, and often downright damaging.

I haven't had that happen, because if something comes up that I disagree with, I either smile and nod, or change the subject. Remember what I said about not rocking the boat? It seems obvious to me, though, that members have no idea how insulting or shame-inducing their tactics are. That's what the church told them to do, so, it must be right, right? In all fairness, it will probably get harder for me once my family realizes that I've started taking my kids to the UU congregation down in Idaho Falls But then again, maybe not....the folks here on this forum watched me struggle back and forth for three years before I finally made peace with wanting to leave.

[quote author=MaskedOne link=topic=219.msg25029#msg25029 date=1293430486]
Does Mormon doctrine make room for strong emotion that is not generated by the Holy Spirit? The high emotion focus here leaves room for entertaining (well for me, anyway) disputes if there aren't some additional factors in play.
[/quote]

I can't speak for everyone, but the particular way I was raised, emotions the church wanted (peace, joy, love for your family, highly charged emotion with crying, guilt/shame for doing something wrong, a sense of obligation to help those who have strayed, etc) all equal the Holy Ghost, while emotions like anger, frustration, desire, lust, etc, are part of the "Natural Man":

For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

But remember that he that persists in his own carnal nature, and goes on in the ways of sin and rebellion against God, remaineth in his fallen state and the bdevil hath all power over him. Therefore he is as though there was no redemption made, being an enemy to God; and also is the devil an enemy to God.

There is no middle ground, it's either God, or the Devil. If you are feeling something that the church does not want you to, it's the latter. One of the greatest ironies of the past few months is that there are so many things that I have been experiencing as suspiciously similar to intervention from the Norse pantheon, more similar to ancestors then to the way I experience Deity/the Ultimate Good/whatever you wish to call it. Several things that it seemed to me, personally, as though they had a hand in(and I'd said as much to my husband), we had pointed out to us by our last bishop as being decidedly, and unequivocally "from God", proof that he blessed the choices that we were making.

That was a moment of "Hmmm....".

[magusphredde]

Re: Ask a Mormon

[quote author=Deseret link=topic=219.msg25103#msg25103 date=1293468898] But then again, maybe not....the folks here on this forum watched me struggle back and forth for three years before I finally made peace with wanting to leave.
[/quote]Frak ... Has it been that long?

[Dez]

Re: Ask a Mormon

[quote author=magusjinx link=topic=219.msg25187#msg25187 date=1293503727]
Frak ... Has it been that long?
[/quote]

Yep, my daughter had just turned one year old when I joined, and now "little squishy" is 4 1/2, and starts Kindergarten next fall.

You guys have seen me through hell and high water, that's for sure.

[magusphredde]

Re: Ask a Mormon

Not sure about Hell, but high water for sure ... :

[Ophidia]

Re: Ask a Mormon

Can you share some information or background on the ties between Mormonism and Masonry/Freemasonry?

[Dez]

Re: Ask a Mormon

Well, the short version is that Joseph Smith was innitiated as a Mason a few months before he had the temple ceremony revealed to him. They share a number of similarities, particularly in that participants wear unusual clothing, and go through a story line involving special words and signs.

In modern times, members are discouraged from participating in fraternal organizations, and so many members often assume that similarities are simply accusations by bible belt groups.

[Dez]

Re: Ask a Mormon

Ran into this today, thought some of you might find it interesting: Apparently, the guys behind South Park have a new Broadway Musical called The Book of Mormon.

[magusphredde]

Re: Ask a Mormon

I gotta see it ....