Spiritual Authority : do you recognise it? And other questions...

[Clive]

Re: Spiritual Authority : do you recognise it? And other questions...

-Do you recognise spiritual authority?

No. My path is my own and is tailored by my gods and myself. I might recognize someone's degree of knowledge, wisdom, and experience, but that makes them a teacher, not an authority figure. They can't take away my "Paganness" because they might know more than I do or because I believe differently than they do or because I choose not to follow their instructions.

If I belonged to a coven then I would recognize some degree of authority in the High Priest and Priestess if I agreed with their ways. If I didn't, then the Ardanes tell me I have the right to say "I will not work under this Priestess" and gtfo.

-Do you think it's even necessary?

Not unless you take comfort in that sort of thing, but it's my feeling that in recognizing authority you are giving away some part of your liberty and freedom of thought.

-Does the Pagan community need it?

Definitely not. One of the things that makes Paganism great is the fact that we're free to learn and expand, with others or alone. Authority figures tend to want to keep things "traditional," i.e., the same. If Paganism is to keep a purpose, then it has to evolve with time.

-Do you need it?

No. I need guidance at times like everybody else, but I don't need somebody who wants to dictate my thoughts, words, and actions.

-And most of what gives a person authority in your view?

The fact that by governmental law they can taser, beat, imprison, or shoot me if I don't "respect their authoritah."

-What do you think about authority?

People who claim authority over others often tend to be less than deserving of respect. Case in point, Mark Ventimiglia, who considered himself an authority in Seax-Wica, and indeed all traditions of Wicca. It was his belief that homosexuality does not belong in Wicca because "It's Goddess and God, not God and God." Yeah, I don't recognize his self-proclaimed "authority."

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Spiritual Authority : do you recognise it? And other questions...

I get nervous too when I see people claiming authority they don't have.

I like taking an experimental approach to life, and - at least for me - I find the scientific attitude toward "authority" to work best:

There are people with a great deal of experience and learning in particular areas. These people are referred to as "authorities" in that field, and are most likely to be correct in questions related to that specific area. However, they do not have "authority" in the sense that they can determine what is or is not correct, or can exert control over others. These people still have an obligation to demonstrate that they are correct - just as everybody else has. And anybody who can prove the authorities are wrong is right

In spiritual matters, "true" and "false" are not very clear cut. They tend to be based largely on internal sensations and/or subjective experiences. Since the only way to invalidate an internal experience or subjective experience is for somebody to feel or experience the same thing in the same way at the same time and demonstrate that a person has had "false" feelings (whatever that might be [?]) - which is impossible - everybody is on their own. Unless they don't trust their own self, in which case they will feel much more comfortable following the leader. Hopefully they'll pick a good one...

[Dez]

Re: Spiritual Authority : do you recognise it? And other questions...

I'm rather fascinated by what people have to say on this.

For me, I have grown up with the concept of a lay priesthood that believes itself to have divine authority from God. This raises some very hairy issues for me. For example, if every male member is, essentially, a priest in their own home, then women become the congregation by default. There is an inequality there that can't be passed.

I see no reason not to respect someone who is honestly trying follow the beliefs of their deity, but that should never override logic, or personal connection with the same divine power.

[thalassa]

Re: Spiritual Authority : do you recognise it? And other questions...

[quote author=Tylluan Penry link=topic=252.msg2559#msg2559 date=1287068430]
Mods _ I am really sorry for double posting here, but when I try to comment the page just starts dancing after acouple of lines and I can't see what I'm doing. If there is a way to do a double post, please could you let me know. Hang on, I'll be back in a minute...
[/quote]

don't worry about it!

we don't have a double post option installed, and I'm not sure if we are going to bother or not...

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Spiritual Authority : do you recognise it? And other questions...

I really like that military analogy, MaskedOne... it's a good way to explain quite a complicated concept.
[quote author=Clive link=topic=252.msg2576#msg2576 date=1287070390]
...it's my feeling that in recognizing authority you are giving away some part of your liberty and freedom of thought.

[/quote]

Yes, Clive, I agree. This is one of the real dangers with 'authority' - that basically you are signing away some of your own liberty (and sometimes other people's too!) And something that often strikes me is that people often have to proclaim their authority to others. To my way of thinking, if you have to tell people that you have authority then you really don't possess it.

[quote author=B. de Corbin link=topic=252.msg2577#msg2577 date=1287070819]
There are people with a great deal of experience and learning in particular areas. These people are referred to as "authorities" in that field, and are most likely to be correct in questions related to that specific area. However, they do not have "authority" in the sense that they can determine what is or is not correct, or can exert control over others. These people still have an obligation to demonstrate that they are correct - just as everybody else has. And anybody who can prove the authorities are wrong is right
[/quote]

I like this comparison - authority is dependant on being proved right... and I appreciate what you're saying too about the different with spiritual matters. They are indeed very hard to prove one way or the other. Which is why the whole thing is basically subjective and I feel that too much authority has to be counter-productive here... well, unless one wants a commune of non-thinkers to emerge....

[quote author=Deseret link=topic=252.msg2579#msg2579 date=1287071005]
I see no reason not to respect someone who is honestly trying follow the beliefs of their deity, but that should never override logic, or personal connection with the same divine power.

[/quote]

I think this neatly sums up much of what we've explored in this thread, especially the part about authority not overriding logic.... the trouble with authority IMO is that it has a tendency to grow into a bit of a monster if unchecked. And how does anyone without authority check the power of someone who claims to have it?

As Oscar Wilde once said 'Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.'

[MaskedOne]

Re: Spiritual Authority : do you recognise it? And other questions...

[quote author=Tylluan Penry link=topic=252.msg2714#msg2714 date=1287089233]
And how does anyone without authority check the power of someone who claims to have it?

[/quote]

Lost the post I was writing, grr. Spiritual authorities barring Divine intervention can be ignored.

Mortal authority, I'm going to divide into two broad classifications.

1) Property owner: Within legal limits, a property owner has very broad control over their own property. This is only appropriate since well the property is theirs to begin with. I'll be mildly pissy if Joe Stranger off the street that comes up and tells me my car is the wrong color and I've got to repaint. They want a car in different colors then they can go buy their own. In larger conditions, a property owner may have agents. Their call is not final unless it agrees with the property owner. I.E., you can appeal to a higher authority (I'll come back to this principle soon). Property owners do have a fundamental restriction, their command is limited to their property. In other areas their rank is equivalent to anyone else.

2) Legal: Legal authorities have far more reach then property owners and their authority can trump a property owners authority over private property. When acting within the legitimate boundaries of their office, a legal authority can easily screw your day to hell and gone. Here's the catch, legal authority stems from well law. The law that empowers a cop also restrains his options. Outside armed rebellion, the law becomes your defense. Following chain of authority is based on a simplified view of US law (and theory behind it) as I understand it. Each line down empowers the line above it and can under the right conditions be used to trump the line above it.

Legal authorities: within their office, they normally win but their office is always limited and they lose their insta-win card whenever they step outside it

Law: Mostly self-explanatory, it defines the roles and limitations of legal authorities. It also provides you the means to check a given individual if they step outside the legitimate bounds of their office

Constitution: All US law (pretend you only have to worry about Federal or I'm adding multiple steps) derives it's authority and right to exist from the Constitution. A law that can be demonstrated before a court to contradict the Constitution is null. The judge has both the power and responsibility to void it.

The people (en masse): The Constitution was made by the people to provide a framework for the United States to function on. Methods were built in so that if a problem occurs that it is ill equipped to face, the people may modify it. If you can get insane amounts of popular support then an Amendment can be written. Barring divine intervention, this is your last step. There is not a higher authority that can be brought to bear within the US.

[Celest]

Re: Spiritual Authority : do you recognise it? And other questions...

I do not recognise a spiritual authority in my life.
I already have enough authority figures; I don't need or want one for my spirit.

[Balthier]

Re: Spiritual Authority : do you recognise it? And other questions...

I think the ultimate authority rests with the gods. I do believe that on occasion they choose someone to lead a group for a while. But as with any human authority, they are fallible and they will answer to the gods for all their mistakes and misdeeds. But it also seems that you as an individual are responsible for the things you do in obedience to those "in authority".

I'm not sure how many people here are familiar with the story of Orestes, but one of the things that sticks out for me about that story is that the gods hold Orestes responsible for the murder of his mother even though Apollo told him to kill his mother. Even if a god tells you to do that thing, if it's wrong, you are still responsible for your part of the deed.

[weareoceansaway]

Re: Spiritual Authority : do you recognise it? And other questions...

---do you recognise spiritual authority?
I agree with the above posters and won't repost it, lol.
---Do you think it's even necessary?
However, I do believe there are some people who do indeed need someone to guide them. Some are in bad ways and may not be able to think for themselves at the moment. Priests of different 'Christian' faiths simply offer them a way to feel better, to know that the troubles of this life will be gone as long as you follow this blah blah blah and you will go 'enter place here'. Some people in this world are strict followers and need a certain direction; they are unable or unwilling to choose their own paths. And that is each to their own. So yes, I do believe some spiritual authority is necessary. BUT---->
---Does the Pagan community need it?
Absolutely not. Do we need teachers who will show us the way to the 'crossroads' (I love the analogy as well!), absolutely. Do we need them to say "This is how it's done always and forever." No. Because we do things differently. Our altars are different. Nothing in the 'Pagan' world is the same. People worship different pantheolons, which means different tools, different ways of offering, different everything. Some things, like the basics of circle casting and crystal use, are considered 'basic' and will need to be shown to a 'path walker', but the actual path they choose is their own. It's like a forest with many, many trees; there are paths between the trees that are interwoven with other paths at different intervals, but are completely different themselves. We may touch on another's believes and borrow some of their teachings, but ultimately it is our own.
---Do you need it?
Not exactly. I used to think so, that I would never be able to indulge in this without some kind of teacher, but I was also raised Roman Catholic. After I got over the huge 'ZOMG whatthehellamIdoingwheredoIstart' phase and simply opened a book, it became much simpler. I'm now solitary because, and I mean no offense to anyone, I've found Coven life too structured and stuffy. I also don't strictly follow Wicca/Paganism; I feel the pull of Shamanism as well and incorporate it a lot.
So yes, solitaridy is my life! Except for my husband, but he practices using the Egyptian Pantheon and doesn't really yeild from the Wicca lifestyle.
I'm babbling again....that is all!

[Rebecca]

[MaskedOne]

[/quote]

You particularly like the idea spending time in a cell? That's where the above example leads.

A distinction needs to be drawn between spiritual/moral/field specific/etc authority which fits your definition fine and legal authority. You can ignore moral authority with minimal consequence. It rarely has the force of Law behind it.

However,if you choose to flout the legal authority of a cop or government official operating within the legitimate boundaries of their office because you think that the official is an a** then you have decided that you are above the law. Unless you've got a small army to defend your new status as a sovereign nation answerable only to itself then your next step can very easily become a prison cell. If you decide to reject the legal authority of the court called to judge your crimes then more charges will be added. I will not deny that a**hole cops exist or that corrupt cops exist. There are ways to handle such individuals within the law. You as an individual do not possess the capacity to say, "This cop's a twit, his authority doesn't apply to me." Attempting to do so will result in society taking offense at your hubris and acting to humble you.

[Raphaeline]

Re: Spiritual Authority : do you recognise it? And other questions...

I think that there are some people who need it; while I and a lot of other people would rather take responsibility for our own spirituality, others need a structure that they can rely on, that they might feel is more secure (and I don't mean that to sound offensive). For instance, some people may not want to deal with the big questions - what is the meaning of life? - and would be able to live their lives more comfortably if they aren't expected to deal with it, if they can comfortably accept that someone else will interpret the rules for them.

I think that works best for people who aren't very religious or spiritual, who don't have a lot of interest in such things.

But when I think spiritual authority, I'm thinking of something like Catholicism. It could also mean having a priest or priestess involved in your social worship, and of course, that's fine, too. Usually their job is to make the spiritual experience more fluid, or maybe they're expected to have a larger amount of more easily accessible knowledge or experience. That doesn't mean they're more important or better than other worshipers, though.

[Rebecca]

[MaskedOne]

Re: Spiritual Authority : do you recognise it? And other questions...

No question, the second is less worthy of respect. Authority? The second example is not by any means a moral authority and doesn't merit treatment as one. Long as moral authority and legal authority aren't confused, then all is good.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Spiritual Authority : do you recognise it? And other questions...

[quote author=MaskedOne link=topic=252.msg3124#msg3124 date=1287165731]
Long as moral authority and legal authority aren't confused, then all is good.
[/quote]

Absolutely, which is why I specified 'spiritual' authority in my OP, even though that in itself is a description that's wide open to a number of different interpretations.