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What doesn't science do for you?

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    #46
    Re: What doesn't science do for you?

    Originally posted by perzephone View Post
    I'm another who doesn't feel that science is at odds with religion. Science tells me how stuff happens, religion tells me that stuff happens and it is awe-full. Knowing how lightning works does not prevent me from beholding it with a sense of wonder, knowing that the air I breathe and the water I drink have been here since the dinosaurs roamed only makes me feel even more connected to life around me.

    Just because the world around me is made up of atoms, electrons, neutrons and bits of other stuff does not make it any less Divine, any less a part of the Great Mystery.
    I second this, said very well perze!
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      #47
      Re: What doesn't science do for you?

      In the end, at least for me...it comes down to this....

      Science has it's limits. Not all truths can be discovered through double-blind studies. It's really that simple.
      Allow me to lend a machete to your intellectual thicket. ~ Captain Jack Sparrow

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        #48
        Re: What doesn't science do for you?

        from Dostoevsky's Notes from the Underground :
        You see, gentlemen, reason is an excellent thing, there's no disputing that, but reason is nothing but reason and satisfies only the rational side of man's nature, while will is a manifestation of the whole life, that is, of the whole human life including reason and all the impulses. And although our life, in this manifestation of it, is often worthless, yet it is life and not simply extracting square roots. Here I, for instance, quite naturally want to live, in order to satisfy all my capacities for life, and not simply my capacity for reasoning, that is, not simply one twentieth of my capacity for life. What does reason know? Reason only knows what it has succeeded in learning (some things, perhaps, it will never learn; this is a poor comfort, but why not say so frankly?) and human nature acts as a whole, with everything that is in it, consciously or unconsciously, and, even it if goes wrong, it lives.
        Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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          #49
          Re: What doesn't science do for you?

          Originally posted by cesara View Post
          In the end, at least for me...it comes down to this....

          Science has it's limits. Not all truths can be discovered through double-blind studies. It's really that simple.
          Erm...I don't want to put words into your mouth or anything, but the implication in this statement is that religion/spirituality does not, in fact, have limits when it comes to discovering a truth...am I understanding you correctly?

          ---------- Post added at 10:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 PM ----------

          Thalassa: I'm going to have to think on that a bit. While I don't disagree with the statement, it's lack of context leaves a bit to be desired for me (for example, the statements made I can completely agree with, however because he doesn't explicitly state (or imply) religion/spirituality, it may or may not have applied from his perspective. Sorry...busy fucking day...

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            #50
            Re: What doesn't science do for you?

            Rok, I think the problem with parts of this thread is that, it's like comparing apples to oranges. You as an atheist take things at face value and feel science answers what you want to know. But some others also accept what science has to offer, but also want to know more of a qualitative meaning behind that and religion or spirituality helps in this respect. What that is exactly isn't easy to explain because it's different for every person and not really something that's measurable, but either you have these beliefs or you don't and I think they're just two very different ways of seeing the world.

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              #51
              Re: What doesn't science do for you?

              I don't disagree with you Danie

              I think the real puzzler for me is that I *used* to feel the same religious/spiritual feelings. It would be wrong of me to say that I get the same feeling from science, because it IS different than it used to be.

              But then again - when I was a "believer" there were *reasons* for my belief. I felt the need to believe in an afterlife because I couldn't cope with the idea of my sense of "self" disappearing after I'm dead...and I suspect that's where my beliefs were "rooted" so to speak. Once those beliefs are adopted (even just a little), it's much easier for your brain to accept other "truths" that may be just as much speculation. For me, personally, it was fear of nonexistence that prompted a belief in spirituality (although don't get me wrong - being raised in a semi-religious household with religious family members probably contributed significantly).

              The reason for the thread (I know it says "Debate", but that was more of an expectation than a desire : ) was morbid curiosity on my part, really...just seeing what reasons people had for believing. Of course, that statement in itself requires a bit of explanation - I don't mean to imply that there *must* be a reason...only that in my experience, for most people (Christians, especially, but mainly because that's where I've gotten the most conversation on the topic).

              So why do I think that there probably IS a reason (even if many people haven't thought that deeply about it)?

              Because religion is work. BELIEF is work. It takes effort - both for the rationalisation processes (that everyone does - myself included), not counting the costs and time involved with practising their religion. I managed to circumvent that a bit by not really practising all that much I mean, basically it boils down to some pretty simple questions (at least from my perspective, of course I wouldn't think to speak for anyone else )

              We have a planet full of people that spend time, money, and effort on believing what they want to believe. Personally? I feel that way too much of my time is "wasted" already. I don't want to put time/money into something that I'm not going to reap a reasonable benefit from. Religion, I learned, did not give me much of a return on my "investment", so to speak.

              After 20+ years of being a firm believer, what I managed to "walk away with" are a few friends, a bit of historical information, a curiosity for history, and a whole lot of wasted hours/days/months/years of attempting to explain (what I believe to be) unsubstantiated opinions.

              Honestly? I have the same question for people that watch sports

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                #52
                Re: What doesn't science do for you?

                Don't forget though that the return on time investment isn't like a financial investment....it's different for everyone

                I get a lot out of prayer and meditation and the odd ritual I do, because it relaxes me and relaxation helps me become more productive, because I'm a highly strung person. I actually waste a lot of my time on the net to try to cope with some of the loneliness and stress I feel built up sometimes, but it's not very productive and when I do stuff like meditate, that's a shorter amount of time that leaves me feeling more rejuvenated and motivated. I guess that's something science doesn't give me because I can read that stuff for an hour and it's interesting and I feel that I learned something but I don't feel any less stress than when I studied accounting or human resources.

                And I do know what you mean. for me I ask those questions about people who watch sports that aren't hockey, or play video games for hours (I do get the fun of playing for a little bit, but hours on end? really? I'd feel I wasted half my day). But to each their own....maybe for those people it's their way of winding down.

                As for the whole "when you die" thing, I actually never gave a lot of thought to what happens to me personally after I die. I do believe in reincarnation but I've never really thought of my own life after I die and move on. I'm actually terrified of dying at the moment (I've almost died something over 10 times...I have to look at my list. Yes, I'm VERY lucky), and thoughts of an after life or another living one don't really help with that. I'm really mostly concerned with THIS life and living it, and accomplishing as much as I possibly can and living a long and happy one. If I can manage to do that I don't much care if I just rot in the ground, go to heaven or reincarnate....So for me personally I don't really feel that my spirituality is about my afterlife...it's all about my current one. Of course that's different for everyone.

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                  #53
                  Re: What doesn't science do for you?

                  Originally posted by Roknrol View Post
                  Erm...I don't want to put words into your mouth or anything, but the implication in this statement is that religion/spirituality does not, in fact, have limits when it comes to discovering a truth...am I understanding you correctly
                  Nope. Sorry you got that idea.

                  Your question was, What doesn't science do for you? And I answered, it doesn't reveal all truths.....

                  [edited to add]
                  This is where the whole "science/spirituality work together, not exclusively" thing comes in to play.....both have their limits, eh?
                  [/edit]

                  [invisible ink]
                  who brought all this straw in here? *wink*
                  [/invisible ink]
                  Last edited by cesara; 24 Mar 2011, 06:44.
                  Allow me to lend a machete to your intellectual thicket. ~ Captain Jack Sparrow

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                    #54
                    Re: What doesn't science do for you?

                    This doesn't pertain to the subject precisely...but I think it offers some insight as to why some people choose (enter name of) religion (not necessarily over science, but at least in addition to it), despite the inaccuracies, inconsistencies, etc...

                    The actual story is on a recent episode of This American Life on NPR, its the second story (about 8 min in) and lasts about 11 min, and its from a memoir titled House of Cards by David Dickerson . The whole story is pretty good, but the pertinent part that I am going to attempt to paraphrase comes at the end (starts around 19 min)...

                    The thing about the bible is, its huge.

                    I could poke at it because I could pick at anything I wanted--talking snakes, virgin birth.

                    But eventually I came around to thinking---maybe religion doesn't have to be consistent, maybe you can just like it enough for it to be good.

                    Maybe religion can be...like Star Trek.

                    I'm a big Star Trek fan, but if you asked me to defend individual episodes, I'd be at a loss because I can't go to bat for everything that Star Trek did.

                    I just love the concept. And maybe religion can be like that.
                    Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                      #55
                      Re: What doesn't science do for you?

                      Excellent point Thalassa - religion doesn't "have" to be the be-all-end-all of everything. It's just unfortunate that so many people rely on something written or invented a few hundred/thousand years ago as though it holds relevance for things that are only recent additions to civilisation.

                      Hell, the simple fact that our Presidential Faiths are as known as they are, and that they're brought up more frequently than the actual issues with our government should illustrate very well what I'm talking about. I don't give a shit if my President is Christian, Catholic, Muslim, Jewish, Pagan, or Pastafarian (although I would prefer the latter )...can he do his fucking job? THAT is the only line of questioning that makes sense, yet it's the same one that we're kept in the dark about until it's far far too late.

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