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The Item, or the Idea?

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    #31
    Re: The Item, or the Idea?

    if you have an idea, pls try it aspa, don't delay for anything.

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      #32
      Re: The Item, or the Idea?

      For what it is worth, I do try to select items carefully so that they hold deep and personal meaning for me. So, in effect, yes, it is the mind, the meaning I have for the item, but it is also the item itself, its appearance and/or history that evokes the meaning. A silly example: a pecan from my granny's farm has a very real meaning for me that no store-bought pecan can approach.

      "No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical." -- Niels Bohr

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        #33
        Re: The Item, or the Idea?

        A little of both, but ultimately I feel that the idea is more important. The right item can make the idea much more powerful; amplify it more than the idea alone. But without the idea behind it, the item is hollow.

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          #34
          Re: The Item, or the Idea?

          << removed because of spam >>
          Last edited by volcaniclastic; 10 Jun 2013, 18:24.

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            #35
            Re: The Item, or the Idea?

            Originally posted by thalassa
            The Heathen Q&amp;A discussion made me think about this as a topic for discussion...

            When it comes to performing a rite, or a bit of magic, a spell, ritual, etc...is it the specific item called for that makes it effective, or is it the idea that the item represents? [...]
            My answer comes from my understanding of the nature of this world and the otherworld, which is based, of course, on personal, subjective experience and should be taken as such. This is the world of the manifest, where physical matter takes precedence over symbols. The otherworld is the world of the unmanifest, where everything is symbolic and nothing is concrete. Spiritual objects create foci that help balance the two worlds (or, at least, help us understand that balance - I'm really not sure which).


            All that's necessary to affect a change in the otherworld (and possibly, depending upon the change, to create an indirect effect in this world) is the idea, the symbol, the focus. So why do I have a pendant, a ring, a staff instead of just the notions thereof. I find the items help in several important ways.


            Items enhance the efficiency of work with others from this world. When other people see me making the air tattwa, they know that we're focusing our energy on things like planning or freedom. This can help us coordinate our efforts during ritual much more efficiently than if we used no objects (although we'd probably still be using physical disruptions in the air - our voices - as the objects with which to describe the symbols we'd like the group to apprehend even if we didn't bring something separate from our bodies).


            The item can stand in for a part of our consciousness (either by itself or as shared with archetypes like spirit guides). We can place healing energy "into" an object - in other words, we can set the energy aside with the proviso that it can be restored with its trigger, the object.


            Because they are part of the world of the unmanifest, archetypes with whom we work are often curious about that which is manifest (and, therefore, strange to them). Because we are of the world of the manifest, they can also use these objects and their correspondences to communicate with us.


            An object can enhance our effectiveness during spirit work by preserving our concentration, helping us stay in a meditative state, and serving as a point of analysis and interpretation for otherworld experiences. Let's say we're using color magic. It can take concentration - and possibly a foray into beta consciousness - to summon the image of orange or green or purple to mind. And, in doing so, we often picture an object of that hue in order to help our minds codify and express our wills, anyway. If we have a cloth nearby with each color represented, it takes less concentration and extraneous energy to keep our color-symbols in mind. Our brains, which have grown up in the manifest world and serve as the filters for our unmanifest selves, more easily apprehend abstract symbols when they have cues. We do not, for instance, say that creepiness stands for the old lighthouse or joy stands for that person over there; rather, we express the reverse. By understanding the symbology of the physical world, we create a lens for understanding the spirit world. As I would guess most other pagans do, I believe in corpospiritual animism. I believe that objects - a stone, a tree, a pool - can be sacred, but that quality is derived from what they suggest rather than what they are (or, at least, seem to be).


            OO

            Book of Spirals is my author site.
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            Spiral Tree is an ezine for pagans I co-founded.

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              #36
              Re: The Item, or the Idea?

              I'd say, to paraphrase someone else, that ritual tools are essentially props. They give you an anchor to focus your mind on or through. You might use an idol or statue to communicate with a deity, but it's just a way of focusing something that comes from you. It's like a cell tower; you're not talking to it, but it's helping to get your signal across. The same can be said for any other items you may use in your rituals. They are important, sacred even, because of their significance to you. My athem would just be an old pocket knife to someone else. It carries no significance in and of itself, no power, but the sight and feel of it unlocks a part of my mind where I store my memories and thoughts of it, and that's where the magic is.

              You can't physically charge a piece of wood or metal or pottery with magic or power. That power is in you. But if the thing can call that power forth from you, then what's the difference? It has power and importance in that way, and it's irreplaceable because nothing else would mean the same thing to you.

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                #37
                Re: The Item, or the Idea?

                I agree with a lot of people about the idea.

                With my experience of just learning, I have found that for me ... certain objects help me focus or make me feel better while I'm trying to open myself. Perhaps these objects really don't mean a thing in a physical sense to whatever spirit/dieties I am trying to open myself to ... but it's helping me mentally find that path and be open to it ^_^

                I think it's the same for ALL spirituality/religions ... physical objects just help open your mind. It's the same reason why most (not all) people just cannot donate or sell that teddy bear from when you were little or toss away an item from a loved one since passed. It's the emotional and mental attachment ^_^

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                  #38
                  Re: The Item, or the Idea?

                  Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                  I'd say, to paraphrase someone else, that ritual tools are essentially props. They give you an anchor to focus your mind on or through. You might use an idol or statue to communicate with a deity, but it's just a way of focusing something that comes from you. It's like a cell tower; you're not talking to it, but it's helping to get your signal across. The same can be said for any other items you may use in your rituals. They are important, sacred even, because of their significance to you. My athem would just be an old pocket knife to someone else. It carries no significance in and of itself, no power, but the sight and feel of it unlocks a part of my mind where I store my memories and thoughts of it, and that's where the magic is.

                  You can't physically charge a piece of wood or metal or pottery with magic or power. That power is in you. But if the thing can call that power forth from you, then what's the difference? It has power and importance in that way, and it's irreplaceable because nothing else would mean the same thing to you.
                  Couldn't agree with you more but along those lines I would say the same even applies to mantras, gestures, etc..they are all 'tools' that can be used to focus and harness the power from within and around you. For me, they are a means to frame my mind..while it is possible to do things without it (or by pure sense of visualization and will)..it is much easier with the use of tools.

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                    #39
                    Re: The Item, or the Idea?

                    For me the idea is more important but that doesn't mean the item are unimportant.

                    Sometimes I have to substitute or make do as far as tools go because of real life limitations. But if I CAN acquire that traditional tool, herb, incense etc and just don't out of laziness, don't want to spend the money, convenience or because I like the smell of a particular incense better, then I have to take a close look at just what my ideas are, where are they coming from and what am I trying to accomplish.

                    It's not Grandma's meat loaf recipe if I've changed it, which is fine, but then I shouldn't go round saying "hey, I made Grandma's meat loaf!"

                    I have found over the decades that doing things the traditional way connects me, on a level I could not have imagined, to the line of humanity that has followed those traditions through the ages. If I just go my own way, then it IS my own way. I am not experiencing the same thing that others experienced, and I won't get the same meaning and feeling of connection.

                    That has been my experience. Others may find that it isn't true for them.

                    But when I made the effort and found a way to do some things traditionally, I was blown away by the power of it. Literally felt goosebumps, hair standing on end, and felt an unbelievable connection to the generations before me, made me so humbled and honored, and part of something larger, truly make me weep. I didn't anticipate that at all. I didn't really understand prior to that the power in the old rituals themselves, not just in the intention.

                    of course people are always creating new rituals and they gain power as they are repeated, respected and shared. I think that is important as well.

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                      #40
                      Re: The Item, or the Idea?

                      I chose ideas as I do think they're more important, but I also think items, or tools, are also important.

                      Physical objects, in my experience, have their own soul or spirit like energy attached to them (not the same as a human or animal or even plant soul, but something); and I believe that they have the ability to absorb and accumulate energy from us. In my experience, they even start to develop a kind of consciousness or personality with enough energy accumulated and if I've worked with them enough.

                      It's possible to perform magik without tools, but tools make things easier, and, at least in my case, they can make a magikal ritual more powerful. They help me to focus and, on a day when I'm feeling off, the magik stored in them can give me a power boost, or sometimes it's more like they're a direct conduit to power or to reach a certain bit of divinity. Also, once their personalities start to come out, it feels like doing magik with a close friend who wants to help you out

                      It is entirely possible to perform magick without any kind of tool (and I even think it's a good idea to do this once and a while to make sure you don't become too dependent on tools), so the idea is more important, but I also think using and empowering your tools (items) is also important.

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                        #41
                        Re: The Item, or the Idea?

                        For me The idea is The most important, still I do see that when items are used they can be powerful tools and I like to have something to focus ny mindre on

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                          #42
                          Re: The Item, or the Idea?

                          If there's no idea behind the item, it's just a thing. Even if others find the thing to be weird or silly. I have a little stuffed pink bunny to represent Eros, because hares are one of His symbols and pink is a love color. It might look silly (and He seems a little "why?" about it, to be honest), but it still has the meaning of Him behind it.
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                            #43
                            Re: The Item, or the Idea?

                            I think both. But mostly the idea. Both play a big part in the thing they represent. Also I second Luna's opinion here.
                            "Fair means that everybody gets what they need. And the only way to get that is to make it happen yourself."



                            Since I adore cats, I might write something strange or unusual in my comment.Cats are awesome!!! ^_^

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