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    The Item, or the Idea?

    The Heathen Q&A discussion made me think about this as a topic for discussion...

    When it comes to performing a rite, or a bit of magic, a spell, ritual, etc...is it the specific item called for that makes it effective, or is it the idea that the item represents?

    In a changing culture, where different items have more or less meaning than they might have at one time, should practitioners use the item, or should they use something of the same importance and symbolism in the context of a modern life (or just the different culture that they may be part of)?
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    Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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    #2
    Re: The Item, or the Idea?

    I worship the deity, not the little ceramic statue on my mantelpiece. The statue just gives my mind a concrete visual concept to go along with the greater abstract concept of God/Goddess/All That Is.

    When it comes to spellwork or magical work, things are great. You can focus magical energy on them and take them somewhere else to unleash that energy, you can use them for storage (mojo bags), you can be reminded of a person, place or thing.

    It's when people forget that the thing is not actually the thing, like people mistaking the flag for the country, or the Bible for God - that's when problems occur.
    Last edited by Ophidia; 30 Jan 2012, 08:33. Reason: Seeing if I could fix the apostropocalypse
    The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

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      #3
      Re: The Item, or the Idea?

      the object is only a tool, a focus, to help a person to concentrate on a given thing, its not really necessary to have anything. but it helps the human mind to focus on it to remove distractions. the human mind is made to multitask, so the more things you are doing involving the one task, the more you will put into it.
      "Sometimes bad things happen, and theres nothing you can do about it, so why worry?" ~ Timon

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        #4
        Re: The Item, or the Idea?

        I voted the item because I think the item has to have some representation of the idea I'm connecting to it to make it work. I just can't make anything to work for some certain purpose - it has to have some properties of the idea to make it work for me.

        So technically the idea is more important, but as I can't have it with all kinds of stuff, I think the item comes first. But the item isn't enough by itself and like Perzephone said, you don't worship to the statue but to the idea. But the statue has to represent the idea somehow from my point of view. I also think many items have or don't the energy naturally, I just have to use that energy. So it's not just my idea which makes it work, but you need the idea to work with that energy. (Am I being confusing again? Sorry.. )

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          #5
          Re: The Item, or the Idea?

          I think that most religion, in most times and places, is about people using a previous idea, and then pragmatically working with what they've got. Religion is always in flux. It's part of human nature.

          If you don't have something, you should do your best to use something similar, but I don't think most gods punish for a decent effort.
          Great Grandmother's Kitchen

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            #6
            Re: The Item, or the Idea?

            [quote author=perzephone link=topic=278.msg2841#msg2841 date=1287106431]
            I worship the deity, not the little ceramic statue on my mantelpiece. The statue just gives my mind a concrete visual concept to go along with the greater abstract concept of God/Goddess/All That Is.

            When it comes to spellwork or magical work, things are great. You can focus magical energy on them and take them somewhere else to unleash that energy, you can use them for storage (mojo bags), you can be reminded of a person, place or thing.

            It's when people forget that the thing is not actually the thing, like people mistaking the flag for the country, or the Bible for God - that's when problems occur.
            [/quote]

            This.
            Children love and want to be loved and they very much prefer the joy of accomplishment to the triumph of hateful failure. Do not mistake a child for his symptom.
            -Erik Erikson

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              #7
              Re: The Item, or the Idea?

              Idea. Symbolism of different things changes across time and cultures. It's the idea that counts the most.

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                #8
                Re: The Item, or the Idea?

                I went with "idea" but really it depends, and that wasn't an option.

                As much as the item, whatever it is and however it's supposed to *represent*, isn't as important there is also the "correct tool for the job" going on here. Something less deity involved, like scrying, for instance, doesn't matter what you use, what matters is what works for you.

                On the other hand, picking up a petrified pile of dog doo, in my back yard, is not a good item for representing one of my deities (...with maybe one exception). As such, it would be important to use something "fitting" or appropriate. So the item IS important; often, nearly as important and sometimes more important that the idea behind whatever ritual or what-have-you.

                The thing is, like for me, certain deities/recipients, to a ritual I may be performing, have *kind of* a specific preference. Heathen, for example. But generally? I'm a bit more generic, in which gods I'm making a request of or paying homage to, so the item becomes less important and the intent becomes central.

                Regarding the above, however, one should keep in mind that I have bastardized more than one dogma to arrive at this path. So that might explain why items and ideas can vacillate in their importance.




                "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

                "Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - Marcus Aurelius

                "The very ink with which history is written is merely fluid prejudice." - Mark Twain

                "The only gossip I'm interested in is things from the Weekly World News - 'Woman's bra bursts, 11 injured'. That kind of thing." - Johnny Depp


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                  #9
                  Re: The Item, or the Idea?

                  [quote author=ChainLightning link=topic=278.msg3065#msg3065 date=1287160352]
                  I went with "idea" but really it depends, and that wasn't an option.
                  [/quote]

                  shh!!!

                  that was part of my evil plan!

                  :P
                  Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                  sigpic

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                    #10
                    Re: The Item, or the Idea?

                    For me it's always the idea... the mind is the greatest tool we possess.... (and no sniggering at the back, thank you! )
                    www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                    Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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                      #11
                      Re: The Item, or the Idea?

                      ALWAYS the idea, or the symbolism. I do not believe that any items inherently have power, or I am quite less inclined to believe that they do. I have a rock that feels very powerful, but it could be my mind.

                      The dagger, the feathers, the stones, the altar, its just an extension of the ritual, the focusing of my mind that allows any power to enter it. The items themselves mean nothing. They are fodder.
                      No one tells the wind which way to blow.

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                        #12
                        Re: The Item, or the Idea?

                        In my case, in my practice, both.

                        Sure, I COULD set up a simpler shrine or no shrine at all and still be able to sufficiently worship Dionysos, but I prefer to have an atmosphere to absorb while I worship, imagery to get "in the mood" more easily, and just to have something beautiful to remind me of all the things I love about him. It also reflects the work I put into worship when I put effort and time into creating something that is a devotional piece of art, which is what I consider shrines to be.

                        In witchcraft and spellcrafting, the item is even more important. The more connected you are mentally to your work, the better the work will be, and you want a sufficient setting and tools to tune yourself in as much as possible.

                        But of course, when it comes right down to it, it's the idea that matters most. You can make do without the item - but if you're not focused, if you're not mentally there, the whole thing's pretty pointless.

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                          #13
                          Re: The Item, or the Idea?

                          I've talked about this with friends before, and most say it makes no sense. But oh well!

                          When a lot of people say that the item isn't important, they then say that it is only a tool, a symbol, or a focal point. I think tools are pretty important. Have you tried to drive in a nail without a hammer? Not many of us could say we can do that. Symbols? Our Language is comprised of symbols. A Stop light? Yeah, that's a symbol too. Symbols are the gasoline for our perceptions and outlook on life. And a focal point? Focusing is great. Hell, I do that crap every day!

                          I think of it like this. Is a paintbrush powerful? No, not inherently. Is my mind powerful? My ego says 'I suppose', but as much as I stare at a canvas, nothing is going to happen unless I pick up that brush and go to work. As far as I see it, its almost symbiotic for me. The mind and the tool work together, and there's nothing mystical about it really. You can decide to do a lot of things, but without some sort of tool it just ain't happening.

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                            #14
                            Re: The Item, or the Idea?

                            For my mind it is the idea. You don't need the physical object. I don't have an athame nor a wand. I don't see the need when my hand coupled with my will (again, no sniggering at the back) can do the job.

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                              #15
                              Re: The Item, or the Idea?

                              The item is born of the idea, to eliminate the idea in favour of the item is ludicrous. However I can see the point of an item that focuses your mind to the idea.

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                              "You can never get a cup of tea large enough or a book long enough to suit me"- CS Lewis


                              https://www.facebook.com/KimberlyHagenART

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