The Japanese Language Learning Thread (v2.0)

[Jembru]

Re: The Japanese Language Learning Thread (v2.0)

I'd like to know what book you're getting that information from as I've never heard of it. I've been studying conversational and formal Japanese since I was 15 and haven't come across the 'tte'. I did find a small section in my grammar book that marks it similar to the use of a quotation mark. However, I still haven't come across it in written or conversational yet...apart from on wikipedia. There are other alternatives that are both more widely accepted and easier to pronounce. 'tte' has a lot of rules attached to its usage. As a conversational marker, 'iimasu' is much more widely accepted and has much less rules attached to it. If you're looking to be more polite, it's also the better option to use.

The book I got it from is at my boyfriend's and I can't remember the name. 'Marker for reported speech' as I worded it, is the same as saying 'spoken quotation mark', so our books are in agreement anyway. I can get the name as soon as I have my hands on the book if you're still interested (it IS a bloomin' good book actually).

I mailed my Japanese friend about this and her reply was;

'Btw about using ''tte''.....yeah we use alot to friends or even not to friends .....its a speaking word for ''said'' you know.
its like this.

ex) he said he can't do it.→kare wa dekinai to itta.
this is proper translation but instead of this we speak....
''kare wa dekinai tte''......this 'tte' includes ''tte itta''.
we don't say ''tte itta'' cos we already understand 'tte' includes that.
you know what i mean??

well I hope you understand what I'm talkng about....'

Please note people, that while I am happy and willing to try to explain things as I understand them, I learned mainly through imitation and self-study. The closest to formal lessons was meeting up with a Japanese student in a cafe, who I paid for lessons from a book called 'Japanese for Busy People II'. This didn't last long though because we found out we had a lot in common and soon became friends instead. I am no expert, my Japanese sucks and I only remember about 200 kanji (at best). So please, please don't take my word for anything.

I noticed you used the 'masu' form kijani. Would it be better if we stick to polite Japanese? I would rather not if only because I need Japanese mainly for speaking casually to friends, who tend to tease me if I am too polite, and also it is much harder to learn this level of speech from 'teach yourself' courses. But I will do whatever keeps everyone happy and am just as happy to use 'to iimashita' as I am to use 'tte'.

[Jembru]

Re: The Japanese Language Learning Thread (v2.0)

Hooray, Japanese thread! (This is what I get for not being on as much!) I'd love to help out as much as I can too! I used to live there...but it's been awhile since that time. I admit my sight-kanji is really rusty. But I've been using the spoken-romaji form when chatting with Habbalah.

Jembru's explanation is a great intro to the language! :3 To add to his/her(?) information:

2) The 'tte': My Japanese student asked me why we wrote words like 'matte' with the 'tte' in romaji (that represented the little 'tsu' in the middle of the word). That got me thinking, and the closest English equivalent I can think of in pronouncing words with the little 'tsu' is the tiny pause in words like 'hottest' and 'hopping'. It's not obvious, but if you can differentiate between 'hoping' and 'hopping' in regular conversation, you're good to go.

(I will try to dig/write up the awesome verb conjugation sheet my TA made years ago. It showed why verbs sounded the way they did in the middle of sentences.)



You can also hear it in words like "Konbanwa" spoken like "KOMbanwa". Another is 'convenience store', or katakana-ized as 'konbini'.

Sorry, I totally forgot to welcome you to our Japanese corner and to thank you for offering to join in! My hope is that once we settle into a format we can all work with, we'll create a nice cosy environment to practice together. I am predicting some issues with the fact that we'll all be at different levels of ability, but I'm confident that even if I can't follow everything, I'll still be learning. Just hope I am able to at least join in!!

It's cool that you lived in Japan. Where exactly? I lived in Ikuta, Kanagawa. To be honest though, I think I learned more Japanese after moving back home. I'd studied 3 years prior to moving too, but soon found that what I learned was nothing like the language used in everyday conversation. It was by keeping in touch with Japanese friends, and making some here, that I was able to pick up more of the language.

I'd really love to read that verb chart. The book that I mentioned to Kijani arranges the verb endings by the verb stem and it is really useful.

Maybe that is a good place to continue this? We could maybe share the books we have found most useful? Or should we just get our teeth stuck into some Japanese conversation? I SHOULD have time to reply tomorrow morning before I go to bed (I work nights). I thought if we just start with nice easy small talk and build from there, everyone could build their confidence. Then as we notice points we could add discussion/dissection of grammar and usage, much as we just did with 'tte. I think it could be a lot of fun! I'm tempted to start a similar thread for German actually.

[kijani]

Re: The Japanese Language Learning Thread (v2.0)

Jembru,

For learning purposes, yeah, it would be easier to start with the more polite forms. I started this thread as a learning thread, and when things are brought up, it's a lot easier to find information and to learn from other books when you have the initial verb forms to go off of. The 'tte' thing for example has a very specified grammatical usage in a very specific situation, and it's not something that you learn until well after you've learned what is considered the more 'polite' forms, because it's not used that often. Learning those other forms gives you a basis to figure out on your own how to shorten things and when you can use those kinds of shortcuts.

The good thing about learning those polite forms is that it makes learning those other forms much easier. For example, in order to look verbs up in a dictionary, you're going to need to know their dictionary form. Dictionary form is really easy to figure out if you know the -masu form. Yomimasu for example will usually show up in a dictionary as yomu. They have the same meaning, but you have to have that dictionary form to do a lot of the conjugations you're going to use in common and polite speech, because the -masu is just one form that the verb takes. You can take that dictonary form and do all sorts of things with it--some which are much less formal than others.

Most text books will teach the formal verbs first because speech in Japan is a social thing. For example, when I was in Okinawa, I spoke to many of my friends fairly informally, but the truth of the matter is when you dont know people, you don't want to talk to them like they are your best bud, so knowing those more formal speech patterns is useful. There's even different conjugations of verbs for business situations. It really just depends on who you're speaking to.



The point of the thread is for learning, so what I need to know is where people are at in their learning process so that I can get an idea of where to start with this. For example....

How many people who have commented in the thread have no previous experience with Japanese?
How many have studied it before? How did you learn? What were your learning tools?
Does anyone have any specific questions relating to the language/culture that they came around to have answered?


That kind of stuff.

I'll start the intro thing off. And since Jembru mentioned book sharing thing, I'll list those as well.

I'm Kayla. Lots of you know that already. I've studied Japanese for 9 years now. I spent three years in Okinawa, Japan, which is where I initially started studying. I learned most of the basics from the Ima! book, and then the Adventures in Japanese series in high school. In college, I used Genki, and then my university switched to the Nakama series. For people just starting out, I think that Adventures in Japanese broke things down the easiest. Nakama seems to go in line with it, although it breaks things down a little differently. I personally think Genki makes things unnecessarily complex, but it was still useful. All of those introduce the use of the various alphabets used. Japanese for Busy People also does the same thing, but I didn't like it quite as much, although I used it as a supplement a few times. I've also studied the culture and literature in a few different classes, and I took the JLPT in 2006. I'm still in school right now working on an English/Japanese/Linguistics/TESOL combo from hell. I'll answer your questions as they pop up and help anyone with anything I can. If I don't know, I'll look it up. We can start from any point, so it doesn't matter if you've never studied the language before, I'll do what I can to help you get started

Right now though, I need to head to bed.

[Jembru]

Re: The Japanese Language Learning Thread (v2.0)

Thanks Kijani. I never really thought about the masu form being a clue as to whether or not the verb is yodan or ichidan. I tend to blend styles just so I can use whichever form I can remember. That was one of the things I wanted practice with. I think the plain form is very valuable, because you can make it polite, keep it friendly or even honorific (although I don't think I will ever attempt to learn keigo!).

For now, I think I'll sit back and just let everyone study what they want to. If I can join in, I will, but maybe just diving into conversation would be too much.

Oh I read Genki too! A friend of mine did Japanese at uni. She can't really speak it, but my goodness is her reading and writing amazing! By the time I came to read it, I'd already covered most of the material in other books, besides the kanji, so didn't get much from it unfortunately.

Right, well, I have been studying Japanese for 12 years but unlike Kijani, not formally and not continuously. I only spent a year in Japan, although I go back from time to time. I really enjoyed the 'Japanese for busy people' course and can't wait until they finally bring out the updated version of volume III. The earlier books I used were a bit crappy. I took a Berlitz course with me to Japan and my friends laughed at how poor it was, 'no one speaks like that' I was told. That sucked because at that point, this was the only course I'd been studying from! I really love a podcast called 'Beb and Alex'. The target language is often Kansai dialect but it's the banter between Alex (a Brit) and Wakasensei (a Japanese lady), that makes it worth listening too. Great for listening practice and highly entertaining. I used to listen to Japanese music to learn, until the Japanese girl I had lessons from, told me not to because singing and spoken Japanese are nothing alike. Oh how could I forget.. there was an out of print book in my library that I loved so much, I started to damage the cover. I managed to get my own copy, destroyed it, so got a new one and destoryed it again! I did the bulk of my learning from that and by the the time I took lessons with Chikae, I was apparently intermediate. I have no idea of my level now and don't really care. What I care about is that I can join in conversations with my friends and be understood. Right now, I feel my Japanese is too vague or just plain wrong. Not sure which.

[Dumuzi]

Re: The Japanese Language Learning Thread (v2.0)

I'm excited for this thread! And I'm ready for my first lesson

[kijani]

Re: The Japanese Language Learning Thread (v2.0)

I'm trying to figure out where to start with the whole learning thing. Shall I post about the alphabets first and then work from there? We can start from like...block one and then work from there if you guys want. Whatever would be easiest.

[Caelia]

Re: The Japanese Language Learning Thread (v2.0)

I think the alphabet is always the best place to start. Then maybe we can move to simple phrases like, "My name is ____. I am _____."

[thalassa]

Re: The Japanese Language Learning Thread (v2.0)

I think the alphabet is always the best place to start. Then maybe we can move to simple phrases like, "My name is ____. I am _____."

And don't forget "Where's the bathroom?"!!

(or, I totally second this idea)

[habbalah]

Re: The Japanese Language Learning Thread (v2.0)

And don't forget "Where's the bathroom?"!!

(or, I totally second this idea)

Where's the bathroom = Toire wa doko desu ka? (lesson one!)

[Jembru]

Re: The Japanese Language Learning Thread (v2.0)

Kijani! I have my book back from my boyfriend's place. It is called 'Japanese Verbs and Essentials of Grammar' by Rita L. Lampkin. It is a very useful book for learners of any level, although it's romaji and I know some people prefer to stick to kana/kanji.

I was wondering if we could have two threads? Maybe a learning one (this one) and a practise one (that people could still give feedback in)? A few of us have mentioned that we have a TESOL/TEFL and/or have taught English, so we should be able to come up with fun language games. Just an idea because I am desperate. Alternatively, I can shut up and go sit in the corner and draw flowers on my hand.

Oh and when you come to teach shopping vocab and phrases, be sure to teach 'would you like a carrier bag?'. Beginner's guides NEVER include this and I was thrown in both Japan and Germany by the same question in supermarkets. Also, 'Do you want it wrapped?' as you are always being asked in Japan, which is in Busy People II I believe, but otherwise usually missing from the books. My dream is to write a language book of phrases you ACTUALLY need, rather than, 'I am looking for a dress' and 'a bus can't be charming'. But alas, I'd never be good enough.

[shadow1982]

Re: The Japanese Language Learning Thread (v2.0)

I'm excited about this thread to. I find learning languages quite difficult but am always willing to give it a go, and japanese is one I have always wanted to try.

[kijani]

Re: The Japanese Language Learning Thread (v2.0)

Yeah. The thing with learning from straight romanji like some of these books teach is that our alphabet uses letters and sounds that don't exist in Japanese language. Many pronunciation misconceptions are usually brought about by stuff like that. Also, reading is just very useful in general, especially when it comes to street signs, menus, grocery stores, shopping situations. Certain stores will ask if you want things wrapped, but that's not as common anymore in most stores. They will wrap breakables (dishware etc) in newspaper and sometimes ask for gifting items, but its not as common. I never ran into anyone asking me if I wanted a carrier bag either, but that could have been a situational thing.

Instead of making a chart, I'm going to show this one. This is the hiragana alphabet. When you're learning if you learn reading and writing alongside one another, this is the first alphabet that you will learn. This chart also has a pronunciation guide. The letter R is pronounced like a cross between a L and a R.



a -- ah. like in the word 'father'
i -- like a double 'e', as in 'bee'.
u -- like a double 'o', as in the word 'boo'.
e -- eh. kind of like in the word 'fetch'
o -- oh. Literally. Like 'Oh my!'

With the vowel pronunciations, pronouncing the rest of the alphabet is pretty easy. The only thing you need to remember is that the 'R' is not pronounced as a hard 'R', and as you can see in the chart above, there is no 'fu'. It's pronounced like 'hu'. Wi and we are not used in modern speech, so we can ignore those.

I'll upload some sound files and images tomorrow, and we can get some basics in and work with some of those. Since some people in this thread are starting from scratch, we'll do the same thing. Right now though, I need to sleep a bit. Class at 930 :<.

[Jembru]

Re: The Japanese Language Learning Thread (v2.0)

Yeah. The thing with learning from straight romanji like some of these books teach is that our alphabet uses letters and sounds that don't exist in Japanese language. Many pronunciation misconceptions are usually brought about by stuff like that.

Definitely! Also, it is very difficult to gain mastery of the language without an understanding of kanji. Knowing kanji can help you to guess the meaning of new words, even if you have never heard them before (more so in reading but to some degree, even in the spoken language). It helps you to memorize vocabulary too. Japanese has a massive vocabulary, due to its ability to blend kanji together in different ways, creating a vast array of synonyms. Trying to learn them all as individual words, would be a massive task. I know, because this is largely how I studied and although I can speak confidently, my vocabulary is limited and I am constantly being thrown by synonyms I haven't yet learnt.

Oh I have a few kanji questions actually, but I can wait until you get kana out of the way so we don't drift in two directions at once.

(The carrier bag thing is possibly quite new. I think it is in response to trying to be greener and reduce wastage. It was the staff in the Odakyu Ox in Ikuta that usually asked, and only if I just had a few items. I went in most nights after work for natto, because I had/have a terrible addiction to the stuff, and they always asked. The wrapping thing is a gift shop thing, yeah. There was only one store near mine where I could get witchy supplies and it was a gift shop so they would ask if it was a present, or if I wanted it wrapped. I learnt quickly but they both threw me at first and I blush terribly when I can't understand what people are saying. It was quite an ordeal ^^).

[kijani]

Re: The Japanese Language Learning Thread (v2.0)

This is the second alphabet. This alphabet is blockier and (thank the gods) usually only used for foreign names and words that don't exist in the Japanese language. Hiragana is the first and most important one you'll learn when learning to read. Sometimes, you will learn hiragana and katakana alongside one another.

Here is a chart of the basic katakana alphabet:



Side Note:

Kanji is important, but you have to kind of take baby steps. Learning kanji can help you to discern the meanings of words and unfamiliar concepts when you come across them, but it's not something I would recommend trying to tackle until you've mastered the other two alphabets. Thankfully, that doesn't take as long as you think. WHY do I think mastering both of those alphabets before tackling kanji?

Because:

Kanji was ganked from the Chinese. Japanese kanji has TWO possible readings--the on-yomi (the Chinese reading--When you study kanji, this reading will be written in katakana) and the kun-yomi (the Japanese reading--this reading will be written in hiragana). As you learn kanji, different combinations will use either the on-yomi or the kun-yomi... but not both. You'll learn to recognize kanji and which readings are used for which words as you go along, but a solid basic reading foundation is always recommended. In MOST reputable learning resources, the reading for the kanji will be provided above it (tiny hiragana called 'furigana') for people who are learning.



Okay. So I've posted both alphabets. With katakana, words are often spelled the way that they sound. For example:

コーヒー
ko-hi-

The lines tell you to kind of elongate the sound. What does the word translate to? Think about what it sounds like.

And the answer is...

Coffee.

Keep in mind that 'foreign' doesn't exactly mean English. This is an interesting resource. It is an online dictionary of foreign words.

http://www.docoja.com/kata/katatxtgA-1.html

Tomorrow, I'll put up a little thing of 'vocab', and we can learn some simple phrases.

[Zazaru]

Re: The Japanese Language Learning Thread (v2.0)

Let me know if I can be of any assistance.