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    Questions for atheists

    Please, take no offense to these. I am truly curious how you approach these. I am trying to figure out my beliefs, but I struggle the most with the fulfilled prophecies and history in the Bible.

    The thing I struggle the most with: How did the men who wrote the Bible do it with such unity? I mean, the Bible all fits together (or so it seems). Prophecies matched up with the other writers and History.

    I'm just really struggling. I want to believe in God, but so many things I can't agree with. How can a loving God do some of the things he did? But then I get stuck on the prophecies and history in the Bible.

    Once again, I'm not meaning any offense and I would appreciate no snarky comments. I am truly asking.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by tigersgrowl1093; 12 Apr 2011, 16:42.

    #2
    Re: Questions for atheists

    So, are you implying that all non-christians are atheists? Or are simply asking strictly for the opinions of atheists? I realise that this thread is posted in the atheist section, but your questions could apply to those of us who follow gods other than your own just as easily as those who follow no gods at all.
    "The proper office of a friend is to side with you when you are in the wrong. Nearly anybody will side with you when you are in the right."--Mark Twain

    "There are only two types of people in this world who walk around beardless; boys and women. I am neither one." --Ancient Greek saying

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Questions for atheists

      Originally posted by Crimson Horizons View Post
      So, are you implying that all non-christians are atheists? Or are simply asking strictly for the opinions of atheists? I realise that this thread is posted in the atheist section, but your questions could apply to those of us who follow gods other than your own just as easily as those who follow no gods at all.
      No, I'm sorry, you're correct.

      I wasn't sure where to put it so I figured I'd put it here and just titled it that way since it was in this section.

      I apologize.

      ETA: Changed the title

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Questions for atheists

        Simple ...


        If you can't bring yourself to believe in the Judeo-Christian realm of religion then don't ...


        I don't ...
        I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them ... John Bernard Books


        Indian Chief 'Two Eagles' was asked by a white government official; "You have observed the white man for 90 years. You've seen his wars and his technological advances. You've seen his progress, and the damage he's done."

        The Chief nodded in agreement.

        The official continued; "Considering all these events, in your opinion, where did the white man go wrong?"

        The Chief stared at the government official for over a minute and then calmly replied.. "When white man find land, Indians running it, no taxes, no debt, plenty buffalo, plenty beaver, clean water. Women did all the work, Medicine Man free. Indian man spend all day hunting and fishing; all night having sex."

        Then the chief leaned back and smiled; "Only white man dumb enough to think he could improve system like that."



        Comment


          #5
          Re: Questions for atheists (and non-Bible believers)

          Understood. No offense taken.

          Originally posted by tigersgrowl1093 View Post
          The thing I struggle the most with: How did the men who wrote the Bible do it with such unity? I mean, the Bible all fits together (or so it seems). Prophecies matched up with the other writers and History.
          The first thing I notice when dealing with the bible is actually its lack of unity. How many different versions of the bible exist? And I'm not talking about translations, but distinct versions. Off the top of my head there is the Roman Catholic, the Greek Orthodox, the Russian Orthodox, the Gregorian and the Anglican. That list is nowhere near complete, and it is (more or less) just different versions of the new testament. The old testament, if lacking that much current diversity, did have its own share of fluidity on its path to canonisation. Look to the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls as an example and you'll see what I mean.

          Originally posted by tigersgrowl1093 View Post
          I'm just really struggling. I want to believe in God, but so many things I can't agree with. How can a loving God do some of the things he did? But then I get stuck on the prophecies and history in the Bible.
          To answer this in any meaningful fashion, I need to know which history and prophecy fulfillment you're referring to.
          "The proper office of a friend is to side with you when you are in the wrong. Nearly anybody will side with you when you are in the right."--Mark Twain

          "There are only two types of people in this world who walk around beardless; boys and women. I am neither one." --Ancient Greek saying

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Questions for atheists (and non-Bible believers)

            Edit: I also echo Crimson's comment - Pagan does NOT = Atheism. There are different belief structures around the world, and each of them contains their own values and pitfalls. To clarify the difference here I'll try to make this brief (and please, I know there are exceptions to everything - for the peanut gallery, only correct me where I'm flat-out WRONG...semantics just make a mess out of stuff like this) :

            Christians, Muslims, Jews, Mormons, Jehovas Witnesses, Catholics, and dozens of other Abrahamic religions all came from the same roots, essentially believing in one, all-powerful God.

            Pagan religions *may* believe in one all-powerful God, but frequently they believe in many Gods, or at the very least many different aspects of one God. Usually (although not always), Pagan Gods tend to not claim the same kind of "all-powerful deity" as the Abrahamic religions claim about their God.

            Agnostics - Tend to believe that there is or are (a) God(s), but they don't put much more thought into it than that - there's "someone", but I don't know how to reach them. Sometimes it's because they just don't care, and sometimes it's because they DO care, but they get so bogged down in religious bullshit that it's not worth it to them to continue seeking.

            Atheists (such as myself) - Believe that there is/are NO God(s), and generally say that they would be willing to believe if there were any evidence to suggest that God exists. Of course, most Atheists that say that are full of shit - they wouldn't know proof if they were nailed to a cross with it. Personally? I'm willing to listen, but the burden of proof is on the claimant

            Originally posted by tigersgrowl1093 View Post
            Please, take no offense to these. I am truly curious how you approach these. I am trying to figure out my beliefs, but I struggle the most with the fulfilled prophecies and history in the Bible.
            As long as I'm not treated like an idiot, I won't be offended

            Originally posted by tigersgrowl1093 View Post
            The thing I struggle the most with: How did the men who wrote the Bible do it with such unity? I mean, the Bible all fits together (or so it seems). Prophecies matched up with the other writers and History.
            They didn't. It became "unified" I believe in the at the Council of Trent (IIRC - I could be wrong) wherein they decided which scriptures should be put in the Bible and which ones shouldn't. The authors - of which there are many - are mostly unknown and the majority of the texts are said to have been written by _______ just because it sounds like something they would have written. To put that in perspective, that would be like taking something that Bono says and attributing it to John Lennon because that's the sort of thing he may have said. For me, that doesn't carry much weight - we basically have thousands of texts on potentially a variety of topics where the bits that we read were handpicked because they "fit" with the rest of the story. That's editorialising God (if the Christians are correct), which still puts the whole belief system into question for me.

            Originally posted by tigersgrowl1093 View Post
            I'm just really struggling. I want to believe in God, but so many things I can't agree with. How can a loving God do some of the things he did? But then I get stuck on the prophecies and history in the Bible.
            Well, there are a few points that I can make on this. Firstly: The "prophecies" in the Bible weren't all that clear when they were prophesied, and also could have been "wedged" to fit in pretty much anywhere. Example? Back when I was in Grade School the Cold War was in full swing, and I couldn't go a single month without *someone* approaching me to tell me all about Revelation and how it applies to the Cold War - the world is going to end soon! But the reality is that Russia went broke, became a Democracy, and faded from public view...no longer a threat, and no longer fitting the prophecy. Of course, there are hundreds of thousands of ways to interpret what someone else dreamed. And we also all know what it's like to remember dreams - pieces are missing, the logic is lost, and oftentimes making heads or tails of them is nigh on impossible.

            Also, I have yet to see ANY non-vague prophesy come true where the prediction did not follow the event.

            As far as the loving God thing goes, the primary question I'd ask if God was good, and if God grants miracles (as He is claimed to be, and claimed to do), why does God NEVER heal amputees? You hear tons of people about "God cured my cancer (fuck you doctors!)", but I have yet to hear one single verifiable story about someone that has regrown a limb overnight. THAT would be a miracle. The rest of it is just guesswork. God may only help some of the people, but apparently he absolutely despises amputees.

            Originally posted by tigersgrowl1093 View Post
            Once again, I'm not meaning any offense and I would appreciate no snarky comments. I am truly asking.

            Thanks.
            No sweat man - I try to keep my shit together until I'm insulted Until then, consider it a given that I usually don't *intend* offense (and it's usually pretty obvious when I do )

            ---------- Post added at 01:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:31 AM ----------

            Originally posted by Crimson Horizons View Post
            The first thing I notice when dealing with the bible is actually its lack of unity. How many different versions of the bible exist? And I'm not talking about translations, but distinct versions. Off the top of my head there is the Roman Catholic, the Greek Orthodox, the Russian Orthodox, the Gregorian and the Anglican. That list is nowhere near complete, and it is (more or less) just different versions of the new testament. The old testament, if lacking that much current diversity, did have its own share of fluidity on its path to canonisation. Look to the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls as an example and you'll see what I mean.
            Hell, you don't even have to go that far - there are two sets of 10 Commandments given in the Bible, one by Jesus. Either Jesus doesn't know the 10 Commandments, or the Jews got it wrong to begin with...there isn't any clarification in the Bible as to which set to follow

            As I said above, at least for me, the bottom line is that if I'm not going to take someone's word for something just because they say it's true, why should my behaviour change just because other people believe it too? Or because it's been believed for 2000 years? I don't know those authors any better than I know any of the folks that I've never talked to around the globe...just because they got their stories in print, doesn't mean that they weren't making shit up
            Last edited by Roknrol; 12 Apr 2011, 17:41. Reason: Clarification

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              #7
              Re: Questions for atheists (and non-Bible believers)

              Originally posted by tigersgrowl1093 View Post
              Please, take no offense to these. I am truly curious how you approach these. I am trying to figure out my beliefs, but I struggle the most with the fulfilled prophecies and history in the Bible.

              The thing I struggle the most with: How did the men who wrote the Bible do it with such unity? I mean, the Bible all fits together (or so it seems). Prophecies matched up with the other writers and History.

              I'm just really struggling. I want to believe in God, but so many things I can't agree with. How can a loving God do some of the things he did? But then I get stuck on the prophecies and history in the Bible.

              Once again, I'm not meaning any offense and I would appreciate no snarky comments. I am truly asking.

              Thanks.
              Very good questions.

              You know, people often move away from God because of the Bible, as if it's got exclusive rights on the idea of God. And I have seen so many people struggle with what you're describing, and even more once they encounter the contradictions and things that just don't add up, only to have everything answered once they come to Islam and the Qur'an.

              You' said something really interesting, 'How did the men who wrote the Bible...'. The Qur'an has only one author, we as Muslims claim it is God. And I firmly believe if you approach it with sincerity you'll reach the same conclusion. It contains challenges, falsification tests, prophecies, scientific facts and not a single contradiction.

              All I'm saying is that you don't have to give up on worshiping God just because of a book that, as you've said it yourself, was written by men, and was corrupted by their hands. A pure speech from God does exist, or at least that's our claim, and what I mentioned above is our evidence for that claim.

              I'm sorry, if you only wanted Atheists to answer you, but the truth is I'm 99% Atheist. I don't believe in lots of gods out there. I don't believe in any of them, except that one
              [4:82]

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                #8
                Re: Questions for atheists

                Um, Dumuzi? Believing in just ONE God? Yeah...that doesn't make you 99% Atheist...that makes you 0% Atheist

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Questions for atheists

                  Originally posted by Roknrol View Post
                  Um, Dumuzi? Believing in just ONE God? Yeah...that doesn't make you 99% Atheist...that makes you 0% Atheist
                  I was being a smarty pants!

                  The percentage was in relation to the number of 'gods' out there.

                  Sometimes I make the comment that Atheists are half Muslim. Cause what makes you a Muslim is to believe that "There is no god, except Allah", and Atheists only believe in half of that statement :-P
                  [4:82]

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Questions for atheists (and non-Bible believers)

                    Originally posted by tigersgrowl1093 View Post
                    Please, take no offense to these. I am truly curious how you approach these. I am trying to figure out my beliefs, but I struggle the most with the fulfilled prophecies and history in the Bible.
                    I have my coffee, so I won't bite

                    The thing I struggle the most with: How did the men who wrote the Bible do it with such unity? I mean, the Bible all fits together (or so it seems). Prophecies matched up with the other writers and History.
                    Historically, as mentioned by others, the Bible wasn't so consistent. Even now there are huge differences. Heck, even with a canonized version of any Bible there are massive inconsistencies in the accounts of Jesus in the gospels. I won't even touch the whole G-source issue.

                    I'm just really struggling. I want to believe in God, but so many things I can't agree with. How can a loving God do some of the things he did? But then I get stuck on the prophecies and history in the Bible.
                    I have to agree if you don't believe, you don't believe. There is nothing wrong with that at all. Heck, there are non-theist Christians out there.

                    I also suggest an episode of Moral Orel that really puts it into perspective. It's a spoof of the old David and Goliath cartoons, but it teaches lots of things. The particular episode in question addresses how God can be depicted with the attitudes He has in the Bible and overall why man should fear Him. Hilarity ensues, but Orel's straightened out by his pastor. The pastor sums it up with how God is neither loving nor angry as a default setting: He is just.

                    When I was Christian I got stuck on the prophecies too. As time wore on and I got to a place where I wasn't pressured into trying to believe one way or another I realized lots of those prophecies didn't really ring as prophecy to me. Lots of it mimics the personal struggles a person goes through in life.

                    Once again, I'm not meaning any offense and I would appreciate no snarky comments. I am truly asking.

                    Thanks.
                    One thing to consider: if there were no prophecies to worry about, what would you believe?

                    Hope I could help
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                    "...leave me curled up in my ball,
                    surrounded by plush, downy things,
                    ill prepared, but willing,
                    to descend."

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Questions for atheists

                      Wanting to believe in God and wanting to believe in the truth are two entirely different things. If you want to believe in God then just overlook all those other things. Until one day you can't. Then you end up here.
                      Satan is my spirit animal

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Questions for atheists (and non-Bible believers)

                        Originally posted by tigersgrowl1093 View Post
                        Please, take no offense to these. I am truly curious how you approach these. I am trying to figure out my beliefs, but I struggle the most with the fulfilled prophecies and history in the Bible.

                        The thing I struggle the most with: How did the men who wrote the Bible do it with such unity? I mean, the Bible all fits together (or so it seems). Prophecies matched up with the other writers and History.
                        I'm pretty sure this has been mentioned (I haven't read other replies yet, but I'm willing to err towards that)...the Bible actually manages to contradict itself very well. I would recommend reading just about anything by New Testament scholar Bart Ehrman (Jesus Interrupted and Misquoting Jesus specifically) for a great illustration of the ways that the Bible is contradictory, and why most people don't catch it (because they read it piece by piece or "vertically" rather than "horizontally"). Granted, his work just pertains to the NT, but...there are plenty of issues with the OT as well...and that is without getting into the historical origins of God (for which I would recomment reading A History of God by Karen Armstrong.

                        I think reading more about the Bible in a historiocritcal methodolgy and the history of the Abrahamic religions is probably a good way to go. I'm not an atheist (much less a militant anti-religious one) and I don't belive in the Bible, but I also don't believe that Christianity is not valid as a path just because its not factually accurate or consistent.
                        Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                          #13
                          Re: Questions for atheists

                          Everybody has already answered your questions with the same answers I'd give, but let me throw out one more thing -

                          If you want to believe in God (or a god), why not go right to the source? Talk to God. If God doesn't answer, either he's not there, or not at home, or not taking messages, or doesn't want to talk to you. If that's the case, you'll have to figure things out on your own.

                          But if God answers, you'll have first hand information which comes direct from above, without the mucky business of the Bible and it's history getting in the way...

                          It's worth a shot.

                          When pagans worship, or perform a ceremony, direct contact with a diety is, at least sometimes, what they are going for.
                          Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Questions for atheists

                            Thank you everyone, I appreciate the replies and sorry I haven't answered sooner, I've been sick.

                            At the time I posted this, I was really struggling with wanting to believe, but I was having a hard time doing it. I was raised that way, I'm around that type of thinking all the time, and just thought it would be easier. I was really grasping for straws.

                            I appreciate everyone taking the time to answer and not bashing me

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Questions for atheists

                              No sweat I hope you're feeling better!

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