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Devotion, Recons and Bears, oh my!

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    Devotion, Recons and Bears, oh my!

    So I've been doing some research into Greek religious practices lately, kind of refreshing something that I was quite obsessed with when I was younger. (For some reason it seems like a majority of kids go through a mythology-crazed phase. I mean, it still happens--Percy Jackson, and all that jazz) One thing that I've been reading up on and looking into is the actual religious belief and devotion of Greek and, to a lesser extent, Roman religionists. It seems like being really "close" to a particuliar deity wasn't exactly a good thing according to what I've been reading. I mean, there were people who spent a lot of money, time and effort to build great monuments to particular deities they felt close to or making elaborate sacrifice. Also, there is ample evidence of home shrines and the like. But the way that most Neopagans I know feel about their deities is much more intimate than seems to be the case with the ancient practitioners. Even private rituals that we have to study are prosaic, complicated, detached I would say. In Roman religion, being overly religious was a bad thing (superstitio) and this is one of the reasons cults like Magna Mater, Mithras, Isis, etc. were sometimes viewed with a wary eye by the Romans.

    The most extreme devotion seems to take place in the mystery cults or Orphism or the cult of Cybele/Magna Mater (often syncronized with Rhea or simply called Meter Theon) and the Dionysian faithful. You could also look at the cult of Artemis of Ephesus, which was almost surely originaly a Potnia Theron type of character and not the Olympian Artemis the Greeks associated with the xoanon at Ephesus much later.

    I guess, what I am interested in is what do Neopagans who incorporate Hellenic or Roman religion into their practice think of this? I would particuliarly be interested in a Recon point of view, but any discussion would be cool. Most of the Neopagans I know have very intimate relationships with their deities, particularly if they consider a certain deity as a patron or matron and perhaps it doesn't matter if the ancients did the same. At the end of the day, all religious practices evolve and Neopaganism is "Neo" so I don't really see a conflict, but is there?

    #2
    Re: Devotion, Recons and Bears, oh my!

    Religious reconstruction is, first and foremost, about practice, the "doing" part. While it was certainly outside the ancient mainstream to become close with deities, it also most certainly happened -- just like how the well-regarded Neoplatonism, in ancient times, actually incorporated magic, even though there were other magics that they did not approve of. Platonic theurgy is the ritualised act of invoking the presence of one or more deities with the ultimate goal of uniting with the divine, it was defined by Proclus to include "all manner of divine possession" -- I don't know about you, but in my book, that really doesn't seem too far off from what can easily be described as closeness with a deity.

    In short, as a recon, I question the motives of recons who explicitly deny that magics and deity relationships have anything to do with Hellenismos. Their goal, at best, seems to be little more than to create a barrier between recons and "neopagans"* to define an "Us versus Them" where one doesn't really exist. Now, for clarity's sake, I'm not saying there are no barriers where "recons do/don't do x -- eclectic/popular pagans do the opposite", I'm just saying that this is not one of those barriers. The main difference is, for Recons, the assumed default is that one will have a more-egalitarian relatinship with the Theoi -- all deities are more-or-less equal and worshipped more-or-less equally; many "neopagans" tend to regard a close deity relationship as something one *must* have, or "zomg, doing it wrong". Both groups are ogoing to have those who go outside that expected default, and that's not a bad thing.

    It's my opinion that the ancient religion can never be truly reconstructed to resemble anything like its old face unless there are wacky cultists who, at first glance, are devoted seemingly-exclusive to only one or two deitties. When we look at the ancient religion, all in all, we see very few, if any "generalised temples" or "generalised public shrines" -- we see instead a collection of cult centres to one or two deities, and we see a majority of people who go to all (or at least most) temples equally, and a few who scarely leave the temple to a particular deity. How close those few truly were to one or two deities is largely unknown, but considering the ritual castration of the priests of Kybele was taken on to emulate either the goddess Herself or Attis (my sources differ), it's really incorrect to assume that this was all a matter of mere contemplation.

    *truth be told, the term "neopagan" was first coined in the 19th century to refer to Hellenophile romantic poets and Neoplatonists
    Of Thespiae

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      #3
      Re: Devotion, Recons and Bears, oh my!

      I particularly mentioned the cult of Roman Magna Mater/Phrygian Kybele (and all those other names for her) to give an example of how it was the "foreign cults" or the ecastics or the mystery religionists who had this deep feeling of closeness with a particular deity. I definitely agree that we don't see as many generalized temples, but I'm not sure what, if anything, that signifies because a lot of temples where it seems deity-specific, we see a lot of other gods showing up, so to speak: in freizes, temple statuary, etc. What I was really interested in was this idea, most explicit in Roman religion, that "superstitio" was a bad thing. But I am completely aware that this could be more political than religious. I mean, Roman religion centered on the idea that the right relationship with the gods of Rome was central to the stability of the Empire. So, wether or not average Romans held to this strict view of the public religion with its offices, rites and codes is up for grabs in my book but I would foster a guess that most citizens also believes that a right relationship between the state and the gods was crucial. And also I know that is a bit tangential since the differences between Roman religion and Hellenistic religion are huge.

      I completely agree that the main game of some of the people you talk about is to set up an us vs. them game, particularly in regards to magic. I have talked to a lot of Hellenistic recons who flat out deny that magic or withcraft or any other term to describe what we're talking about had any part in ancient Greek religion. I think it did, but I do see their point that it definitely wasn't the magic that we see with modern witchcraft movements like Wicca and eclectic Neopaganism. I do think it is impossible to square the circle of mixing magic in the form it is seen in modern Wicca and its offshoots and the "magic" that would have been practiced or believed in by ancient Greek religionists.

      As to the devotion thing, I still think that the modern Pagan movement has a current in it where devotion to a deity in an intimate way is very central and I am not sure it was seen this way in Greek and Roman religion in the classical period outside of certain cases such as the aforementioned cult of Cybele, mystery religions or Dionysus worship. I do think that when we study ancient Greek relgion we have to be careful because so much of the academic community who have studied this religion have studied it through the lens of Neoplatonism and the more philosophical outlooks such as those espoused by Julian "the Apostate" and the like. I really don't think the average Greek or Roman believer looked to the gods in the same way a Platonic would, which are over-represented in the studies because they left the most writings.

      As to the term "Neopagan" being used for romantics, that's true but it definitely did not mean what it does now. Romantic painters might have loved to draw the gods of Greece, but we would be hard pressed to find an example of one of them actually worshipping that God or Goddess outside the context of mere symbolism. I think that what might be true, and this is just a shot in the dark, is that many Neopagans today come from traditions like Christianity, where devotion to God is paramount. I think that it might be possible that this worldview gets filtered into their new beliefs a bit.

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        #4
        Re: Devotion, Recons and Bears, oh my!

        Maybe the close association of neopagans with their dieties is the result of the way in which people become pagans - many that I've talked to tell me that one of their big motivations to become pagan was specifically that they did not feel a close association with their original religion, so they sought out something that would be more personal.

        Also, while here are Hellenic and Roman priests and preistesses running around, there aren't so many that everybody can easily find one, which means that, for many, being your own priest or preistess is the only option - the relationship between self and diety, which might sometimes be mediated or faciliatated by a priest or preistess, has to be personal, or not at all.
        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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          #5
          Re: Devotion, Recons and Bears, oh my!

          Well, viewed from a very narrow perspective (i.e. mine ) I would say that you have to remember that the cult of Artemis for example, covered a massive time span. It evolved over time, as did that of Apollo. And it covered a large geographical area. If you look at Artemis in Ephesus for example, you find one aspect, but in a different part of the Greek empire (think of the Brauronian Artemis, for example) you'll find another. And don't even get me started on the Romans!). And this of course is part of the appeal - that you can take an aspect you like, and ignore the others. You don't have to accept every aspect of any deity... you can find a wide range to choose from.
          www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


          Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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            #6
            Re: Devotion, Recons and Bears, oh my!

            The concept of deity has changed considerably over time, from deity being a distant and inscrutable force to a mentor or a parental figure, and for a lot of different reasons. Maybe because humanity has a desire to be more intimate with deity. Or maybe we think we're close enough to deity to be on more intimate terms.

            On the other hand, we have religious zealots today who claim to be more intimately acquainted with their god than most everyone else, and that is still viewed as odd, dangerous, etc. It could also be that to focus on one deity alone was to be blind to the others and what they represented.

            But a person who is more devoted to the deities than to the state is also dangerous. We see today how people are more willing to elect a leader based on spiritual values rather than ability to lead (which are not synonymous!). So, culturally speaking, it would be wise to erect a barrier between humanity and deity if only to keep the peace.

            Is there a conflict? Depends on you and your perception of deity.
            "All four winds blow steady, singing 'hie, the open road is home!'"
            http://hagstones.blogspot.com

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              #7
              Re: Devotion, Recons and Bears, oh my!

              Where's the bear talk? I was hoping for some bear talk.....sigh. *grin*
              Allow me to lend a machete to your intellectual thicket. ~ Captain Jack Sparrow

              sigpic

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                #8
                Re: Devotion, Recons and Bears, oh my!

                I'm with Cesara here, where are the bears in this equation!?! :rage:
                http://catcrowsnow.blogspot.com/

                But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness.... Which could obviously only be redeemed by passing through the fiery inferno of my digestive tract.
                ~Jim Butcher

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                  #9
                  Re: Devotion, Recons and Bears, oh my!

                  I think bears are about to hibernate, that's why you don't see them in this equation.... yeah i know... silly me.

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                    #10
                    Re: Devotion, Recons and Bears, oh my!

                    here yeh go




                    ...oh my

                    Last edited by JamesByrne; 23 Sep 2012, 10:18. Reason: ...oh my

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                      #11
                      Re: Devotion, Recons and Bears, oh my!

                      You're bad James, i should whip you.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Devotion, Recons and Bears, oh my!

                        Larkin! ...Oh my

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Devotion, Recons and Bears, oh my!

                          Yes, that's exactly what you would say after...

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                            #14
                            Re: Devotion, Recons and Bears, oh my!

                            This thread has become a little less about recons, tee hee
                            Oh My!
                            http://catcrowsnow.blogspot.com/

                            But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness.... Which could obviously only be redeemed by passing through the fiery inferno of my digestive tract.
                            ~Jim Butcher

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Devotion, Recons and Bears, oh my!

                              Hey hey, a shout out for the bear community, WOOF!
                              I've wondered this, having felt a draw to Fortuna (trust me to feel a connection to the goddess of “blind” luck), and even though I have heard of cults based around a single deity in ancient Egypt, I haven’t really heard about any in ancient Greece.

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