What sort of Pagan Institution would you set up?

[Roknrol]

Re: What sort of Pagan Institution would you set up?

He's got a point, though. Is PF, or something like it, potentially the answer to sustaining some sort of institution based on a common principle?

No, it's very nature (including people) precludes it from being successful.

---------- Post added at 11:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:25 PM ----------

It seems that way until you read articles such as this where similar issues are addressed:

http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.htm...trads&id=14566

He poses some very valid points, however it appears that the biggest issues that he has are a direct result of unreasonable expectations of the people in the community.

He mentions that every "Pagan" community seems to want to charge money and doesn't seem to acknowledge the fact that we are in one of the laziest societies where most people can't be troubled to hold the door for someone with their hands full. He wants it for free. And he wants everyone to be an adult about the situation. And he expects that someone will try to take advantage of the situation.

And he's right.

Where he's wrong is that he assumes that human nature will be changed by a plea to "stand up and help your fellow man", when the last 15k years has pretty much shown that something shiny is worth more than a life.

[Caelia]

Re: What sort of Pagan Institution would you set up?

Where he's wrong is that he assumes that human nature will be changed by a plea to "stand up and help your fellow man", when the last 15k years has pretty much shown that something shiny is worth more than a life.

I actually read that aspect as a rally cry rather than a plea. It's a common writing device, especially in ethos rhetoric, to remind the reader that he has some role to play in this and to consider that role after reading the argument.

Besides, if that were the case as you present it the concept of a revolution would be a very novel one

[thalassa]

Re: What sort of Pagan Institution would you set up?

He mentions that every "Pagan" community seems to want to charge money and doesn't seem to acknowledge the fact that we are in one of the laziest societies where most people can't be troubled to hold the door for someone with their hands full. He wants it for free. And he wants everyone to be an adult about the situation. And he expects that someone will try to take advantage of the situation.

And he's right.

Where he's wrong is that he assumes that human nature will be changed by a plea to "stand up and help your fellow man", when the last 15k years has pretty much shown that something shiny is worth more than a life.

I think he's wrong in thinking that people can/should eat air. An event takes money--either to have bought one's own property (mortgage that needs to be paid year round) or to rent out a property for the event, tents, etc for first aid and registration, security, programs, radios, activities for kids if there is a children's area, firewood, insurance, etc...and lets not even talk about the price of gas, and paying for travel and accommodations for presenters. If I make something--which takes time, effort and money for supplies, I might trade for it...but if someone wants what I have and they don't have something I want, we live in a world where I can take some green paper and use it to get something I want or need...the idea that I should give everything away would very quickly lead to either having to cease that activity for lack of funding to continue it, or to have to go back to the eating air thing.

Even "sustainable" communities need money to start them and to sustain them. Buying land, building structures necessary to the community, equipment for whatever activity is going to make the community income (because even the most self-sufficient communities and individuals have some things that they can't make themselves)e, maintenance on the buildings and equipment...and what happens if these people get sick, or hurt? Who pays for their medical care? What if someone dies and its the "fault" of improper maintenance of the facility? Hopefully there's insurance and no one sues.

We don't exist in a vacuum apart from the rest of society, and I know that I certainly don't want to anyhow. ...and survival in this society takes money.

[Monk]

Re: What sort of Pagan Institution would you set up?

I think the reason this "Community" works so well is the fact that we interact at a distance from each other. Most of us have never met or likely ever will. Even though we share a common thread of belief, that of Paganism and all its many variations . We are individuals that exist as we do because like anything else if something is added to it it no longer exist as it was. Through this medium (internet) we can at least be precised as we would like to be in our own words without the need to confront our differences face to face. Here we can bounce ideas and share experiences in a privet and yet at the same time public forum. If we were to come together as a physical community with the need to create an infrastructure that required commerce, laws, schools, and leadership of some type it would inflict a great deal of change in our persona. There would be the need to conform to some degree to make the community work and as some of us have stated that fact alone would repel us rather than draw us together.

[yukanaoe]

Re: What sort of Pagan Institution would you set up?

I WOULD OPEN UP A PAGAN BANK!! cause i'm sick of this TD crap being open 7 days a week and only closing 4 days out of the year!!

closed all pagan holidays bishes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[AzazelEblis]

Re: What sort of Pagan Institution would you set up?

No, it's very nature (including people) precludes it from being successful.

Then why do humans always set up governmental and religious institutions? Even minority religions historically get a fair chance to set up an institution in the US. Sure, they all have their nonsense, but they keep going until people decided they've quit doing their jobs. For some reason, I've noticed that even trying to give a group of people something is like herding cats - I can't help but theorize at the cause, but that's all.

And people have a history of standing up to help their fellow man, once you show that it's in their own interests as well. And isn't that what a community is about?

[Monk]

Re: What sort of Pagan Institution would you set up?

Then why do humans always set up governmental and religious institutions? Even minority religions historically get a fair chance to set up an institution in the US. Sure, they all have their nonsense, but they keep going until people decided they've quit doing their jobs. For some reason, I've noticed that even trying to give a group of people something is like herding cats - I can't help but theorize at the cause, but that's all.

And people have a history of standing up to help their fellow man, once you show that it's in their own interests as well. And isn't that what a community is about?

Power. the power to control others is to often the driving force behind the people that do these things. One can help others even while standing in the shadows with out the need to form an institution of one type or another. a community should be about helping others. But it can be made up of like minded people with many different interest as well as back grounds.

[Yazichestvo]

Re: What sort of Pagan Institution would you set up?

This reminds me of the pagan student fellowship at my university. It started with just a few of my friends and myself, and has now over a dozen members. There are complications, definitely. When ever you gather together a lot of people ranging from unique to strange, you can expect some dysfunctional moments. We've actually heard a few pagans say they don't feel like getting involved, but many do appreciate having some sort of community, and actually sought one out.

[Monk]

Re: What sort of Pagan Institution would you set up?

This reminds me of the pagan student fellowship at my university. It started with just a few of my friends and myself, and has now over a dozen members. There are complications, definitely. When ever you gather together a lot of people ranging from unique to strange, you can expect some dysfunctional moments. We've actually heard a few pagans say they don't feel like getting involved, but many do appreciate having some sort of community, and actually sought one out.

I think this is why covens have traditionally been small and Pagan's in general link up with other like minded groups usually only during festivals. I like the "unique to strange" assessment as I believe it fits so well And that it definitely not a bad thing in my eyes. This is what makes us different form other groups that would (and do) cast people out for these traits.

I applaud and somewhat envy you and your fellowship.

[AzazelEblis]

Re: What sort of Pagan Institution would you set up?

Power. the power to control others is to often the driving force behind the people that do these things. One can help others even while standing in the shadows with out the need to form an institution of one type or another. a community should be about helping others. But it can be made up of like minded people with many different interest as well as back grounds.

What nation do you live in? Oh, right - one that started on claims of Popular Sovereignty. So, your "Power" ideal isn't necessarily something that holds completely true.

Meanwhile, way back in the 1970s, this "militant" group called the Panthers (formed in '66) got tired of waiting on the government to help their communities, and started making changes themselves. Community breakfasts for school children, helping to setup protests for disabled students, firearms training... They realized that power wasn't something you get by petitioning your massas. You get it by organizing to affect those around you.

And really, what's the point of power? Power for its own sake is something too selfish for anyone but the most sociopathic among us. But considering Power wasn't a part of the conversation until you stepped in, we're far from that.

What's wrong with demanding that our traditions be protected? These institutions will be a focal point to bring together communities which nourish them; at the same time, this will enable those institutions to carry our their purpose.

[thalassa]

Re: What sort of Pagan Institution would you set up?

What's wrong with demanding that our traditions be protected? These institutions will be a focal point to bring together communities which nourish them; at the same time, this will enable those institutions to carry our their purpose.

Which traditions are those? And whose "our"?

[ChainLightning]

Re: What sort of Pagan Institution would you set up?

That's a good question. We're going to run into trouble if we say "everyone's traditions". Who IS "everyone"?

It still stands, IMO, that those in control have an agenda... call it power struggle, call it politics, call it highly motivated, for all I care. There is a HUGE difference between the community we have here, on PF, and some Pagan Institution created for ANY reason, out in the real world. Whether it's for uniform accreditation, fair representation or social education, the institution is highly suspect JUST because it has people in it. Capitalist venture? Activism platform? A new church?

You can't engineer a community, a culture. It just happens. Engineering it makes a small problem worse.

[MaskedOne]

Re: What sort of Pagan Institution would you set up?

Which traditions are those? And whose "our"?

Not mine.

Admittedly that's because I don't intend to share most of them. Sorry, will be serious now.

I have no interest in attempting to arrange a "Pagan" institution. I don't think that "Pagan" is a clear enough identifier and I'd rather work on behalf of half a dozen sects (Pagan or otherwise long as they are either useful or amusing) with a clear idea of who they are then try and set up one catch all institution for a multitude of sects who are unified by what they are not. The closest I'd come to interest in a Pagan institution is a joint effort to start and build or revitalize a dying community. Build a community, ground up, only real defining feature is civility and make certain that you have a strong Pagan presence from the outset so there's no great concern over the community going hostile. Long as you've got a strong enough initial presence, the various sects will have a chance to build and maintain their own traditions and institutions. If they fail to take that opportunity, too bad.

Anything more focused (organized is a whole different issue) than a town should either be sect based or mission based with a very clear idea of what it is and wants to accomplish. 'Pagan' encompasses too many disparate goals and groups. You either get a failed institution or an institution that calls itself one thing and is another.

[Monk]

Re: What sort of Pagan Institution would you set up?

What nation do you live in? Oh, right - one that started on claims of Popular Sovereignty. So, your "Power" ideal isn't necessarily something that holds completely true.

Meanwhile, way back in the 1970s, this "militant" group called the Panthers (formed in '66) got tired of waiting on the government to help their communities, and started making changes themselves. Community breakfasts for school children, helping to setup protests for disabled students, firearms training... They realized that power wasn't something you get by petitioning your massas. You get it by organizing to affect those around you.

And really, what's the point of power? Power for its own sake is something too selfish for anyone but the most sociopathic among us. But considering Power wasn't a part of the conversation until you stepped in, we're far from that.

What's wrong with demanding that our traditions be protected? These institutions will be a focal point to bring together communities which nourish them; at the same time, this will enable those institutions to carry our their purpose.

I was going to reply to this but then I thought whats the point. I've read it at least six times and still don't see how it relates to my post.