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    #1

    Absolutely disgusting

    German insurer Munich Re held orgy for salesmen
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13454160
    A top German insurance company confirms to the BBC it held a party for salesmen in 2007 where prostitutes were offered to star salesmen.


    I'm not against prostitution, and I have nothing against the girls and I think legalizing it solves a lot of problems, but this is just ridiculous. I have several issues with this, one of which is a lot of guys going to that were probably married and I get really upset at how a LOT of men over here think it doesn't "count" if it's with a prostitute (it's still cheating, and if my husband ever does it to me it's divorce time!) Also, my bigger issue with this is about women. Are there women who were high performers at this company? If not, why? If so, why was there clearly such a "boys" event, which they were likely left out of? It's like entertaining associates at a strip club...it's something so clearly in the "boys game" that women just get left out of it at the expense of their careers, and it's just WRONG. So we have to objectify women to get ahead still? Years of feminism and stuff like this is STILL happening?

    I really, really want to write that company and tell them where they can stick it. It's just so unacceptable and so unprofessional.
    Tags: None
    #2
    Re: Absolutely disgusting

    The choice of what those men did with the prostitutes is up to them. They could have sat and talked, they could have danced, they could have played video games. Cheating is a result of the cheater, not the circumstances. (IMO)

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      #3
      Re: Absolutely disgusting

      I didn't read anything about the participating prostitutes being there against their will. Nothing about any sort of illegal or non consensual activity. I'd say this was a very unconventional way of rewarding employees that performed well at said company/companies and maybe even a little gross (I wouldn't wanna catch some disease from a co worker that one of the prostitutes were with prior), but I wouldn't say this is wrong.
      �Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted. And experience is often the most valuable thing you have to offer.�
      ― Randy Pausch, The Last Lecture
      Sneak Attack
      Avatar picture by the wonderful and talented TJSGrimm.

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        #4
        Re: Absolutely disgusting

        True, but I think that only inviting male members of the sales staff (and this is GERMANY, there has got to be at least one woman who performs as well as them) to a clearly male event is NOT professional and its exclusionary. If they want to plan something nice for their staff, they should plan something for both genders on their team that they will both be comfortable participating in and enjoy.

        And once again, if there was honestly all men, why? Women make up the majority of sales and marketing graduates here in Germany so if their team is all men, that's also likely due to discrimination.

        ---------- Post added at 08:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:49 PM ----------

        This isn't about prostitution being wrong. I don't think it's wrong. This is about business and what is professional. It's also about business in a country that is still struggling with that world being a "boys game" and "activities" like this just don't sit well with me, as a woman trying to enter said world. There's already so much discrimination for women here, and it's getting better, but then I hear stories like this and I just think it's still such a man's world. And even if women just weren't on the team (which I find really questionable....) it's stuff like this that really makes it hard for women here. So much networking and stuff is just done in strip clubs and brothels and stuff like that. I think it's true for other countries as well (it's actually a big issue in the literature on gender equality in business) but I know it's true here.

        If they went to Budapest and then some guys decided to go to a brothel on their own, that's their business. But organizing it as a group function as a reward for work shows a very gender-divisive, boys club attitude. THAT'S what I find sickening.
        Last edited by DanieMarie; 19 May 2011, 11:16.

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          #5
          Re: Absolutely disgusting

          In that case, I would like to point out that the article you linked did not specify there were only men there. It did not specify any genders except that the prostitutes were women. "Salesman" is an all encompassing term, much like "mankind" is often used for all people of the world.

          Unless there is another article on the same topic that you did not link, I think you are kind of jumping the gun and assuming.
          �Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted. And experience is often the most valuable thing you have to offer.�
          ― Randy Pausch, The Last Lecture
          Sneak Attack
          Avatar picture by the wonderful and talented TJSGrimm.

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            #6
            Re: Absolutely disgusting

            I guess that's true, but it really doesn't seem like somewhere that, as a woman, I would be comfortable attending and I think that's true of a lot of women.

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              #7
              Re: Absolutely disgusting

              Danie, do you happen to have the phone number of that company? I really want to call them and let them have it!





              And then I'm gonna ask them to hire me!
              [4:82]

              Comment

                #8
                Re: Absolutely disgusting

                It's certainly possible. I can't see myself going to such an event and I know this doesn't absolve the root problem that you are getting at with this post, but I just needed clarify that the article and the issue are not necessarily one and the same.
                �Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted. And experience is often the most valuable thing you have to offer.�
                ― Randy Pausch, The Last Lecture
                Sneak Attack
                Avatar picture by the wonderful and talented TJSGrimm.

                Comment

                  #9
                  Re: Absolutely disgusting

                  PS doing an article search in German, it says "Mitarbeiter" and that's not speaking for both genders.

                  It's also being criticized a lot for the same reason I feel it's not right. It's a "men's club" sort of attitude, and it seems to have been men only.

                  ---------- Post added at 09:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:48 PM ----------

                  Originally posted by Juniper Raven View Post
                  It's certainly possible. I can't see myself going to such an event and I know this doesn't absolve the root problem that you are getting at with this post, but I just needed clarify that the article and the issue are not necessarily one and the same.
                  Yeah gotcha. I also wonder if it's translated from German press stuff? In Germany (as you know) the masculine isn't so gender neutral, but in English it appears that way.

                  I've been googling in German and it really does seem like it was men only. A lot of German women in politics and business are not happy about it as well it seems...

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Re: Absolutely disgusting

                    Seriously though, I wanted to say something, and I know this isn't a debate but a rant, so that's what I'm gonna do!

                    First of all I totally agree with the title of this thread. It seems that these men were rewarded with women, like one would buy someone a fancy dinner, like lobster or steak. Women have been reduced to become basically like food you devour. Putting aside what your opinion about prostitution is, I doubt this man has any real respect for women as actual human beings, as opposed to just objects that you can enjoy.
                    [4:82]

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                      #11
                      Re: Absolutely disgusting

                      I would have asked why I wasn't included.

                      I could have played Parcheesi with the hooker (on works dime) for all I care...but I would have made the point that what is good for the goose is good for the gander by throwing a fit that I should have been invited, rather than by complaining (which usually just gets you ostracized)...but I spent 6 years playing in a "boys club" and I realize that not all that many females are comfortable sticking it back to them. After hours client wooing as a strip club? Who cares, I've been to one more than once.
                      Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                        #12
                        Re: Absolutely disgusting

                        I sort of get what you're saying, but it's the 21st century.....can't we think of more gender neutral ways of wooing clients? Especially since clients aren't always men anymore, or may be a mixture of both. I think it sends out a better image to just do dinner or drinks.

                        Once again, nothing against strip clubs (I've been too), I just think that it's not really good "business" anymore. If you want to go on your own time, great. I don't even care if my boyfriend goes (really, I don't...I don't find it threatening). But I don't think it has any place in business-related matters.

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                          #13
                          Re: Absolutely disgusting

                          Originally posted by DanieMarie View Post
                          I sort of get what you're saying, but it's the 21st century.....can't we think of more gender neutral ways of wooing clients? Especially since clients aren't always men anymore, or may be a mixture of both. I think it sends out a better image to just do dinner or drinks.
                          I think it depends on the expectation of the clients...I know plenty of men (and women) that *aren't* living in the 21st century. Personally, I'm *not* in business, so I can afford to turn down people that don't show a level of professionalism or decency that I expect...but, I'm pretty sure that it probably takes a while to get to the point where one can afford to lose a multimillion dollar client over some dancing naked chicks. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that quality of work don't play a role in that sort of thing, but I'd be willing to bet that at that level, there is more than one company that can provide the same services to a client, and it comes down to the "extras" or the personal relationship.
                          Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                            #14
                            Re: Absolutely disgusting

                            I agree, but I also think we *should* be making an effort to speak against it, in order to get it phased out.

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