Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

[GypsySeaWitch]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

I'm against circumcision unless it is done for a medical reason. My view on it is that guys weren't supposed to have the skin there - they would be made like that. I do understand the fear that some get about a man being unclean if he isn't cut, but his parents should have taught him the importance of hygiene. If they did - then he should be clean even when not circumcised. As for the legal standards - I also think it is wrong without a serious medical reason. I know I wouldn't want anyone messing with my body without my say in the matter. Most guys I know have admitted they feel like something is missing there and wonder what it would have been like to be uncut. I don't remember how that conversation even started but I got to hear a lot of personal guy issues with circumcision that I really listened to and took to heart. A few of them even felt they were snipped incorrectly as the skin on the penis was too tight or was oddly shaped - like the doctor wasn't paying attention. And from the nurses I've known the doctors don't do the cutting patiently - it has become to routine. Another thing that makes me nervous.


After listening to my friends and learning about it as much as I could - if I ever have a son, I'm letting him make that decision when he is older. I don't feel I should be the one making such a big decision about his body.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

I read thid post, because I didd'nt even know that there was a debate. I had no idea that there were countries that did not circumcise boys, I thought that hospitals just "did it." I read the thread and did a quick google search of my own, and I am horrified by how it is done, I just have to admit that I believed that it was cleaner because it was taught to me in sex ed in school, (which had problems in it's own right.) Thanks for just having this post, it encouraged me to read about it, (which I may not have done otherwise.) and now I can sort of understand why there is currently such a fuss about it in Germany right now.

Yeah it's not really done here. Most of Europe (including the UK) doesn't do it. It's kind of seen as barbaric. Even in Canada it tends to be more 50-50. I've never been with a European guy who was...I've only been with 2 guys that were (I've been with 2 Americans lol) so I sort of think it looks weird. I wouldn't turn a guy out of bed because of it though, because it's not like it was his choice.

I wouldn't do it to my son.

[earthgirl]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

I think it's wrong to mutilate children, unless it's absolutely medically necessary and there is no way to save the foreskin, such as in the case of staggeringly rare deformities and such.

There's a sound evolutionary reason why human males are born with a foreskin, even if most everyone's too squicked at the idea that their boys will eventually grow up and have sex, to look into it before mutilating them. The foreskin has important health and sexual functions. It is a mucus membrane, it provides lubrication, it has a high concentration of nerves, it serves as a protective sheath to prevent chafing of the head and thickening of the skin to the point of significant desensitization, and having one makes sexual intercourse more pleasurable, often for both partners. And more.

In addition, regardless of anesthetics used, the pain a child feels for weeks after having his penis mutilated is enough to hamper mother-child bonding, which has negative long-term psychological effects on the person.

Also also, while not mutilating a child poses risks of damage to the penis so unlikely that they are not actually worth mentioning, there are risks associated with mutilating the child, such as permanently damaging the penis in a way that will make sexual function difficult, painful, or impossible. Several exes of mine have significant sexual dysfunction due to the doctors who mutilated them doing it wrong. (Or more wrong, I should say.) One of them had never reached orgasm in his life because he had no sensation in his penis, aside from pain around the scarred area. That could have been prevented if his parents hadn't decided to mutilate their defenseless infant son.

Also, "cleanliness" is a myth. If a penis is clean, its because its owner takes care of it, not because it has been mutilated. If a man has no STDs, it's because he has had safe sex, not because his penis has been mutilated. There have been several studies that do not support the alleged reduced disease transmission from mutilated penises, particularly in regards to HIV transmission, as evidenced on page 123 of this independent survey from 2005. http://www.measuredhs.com/pubs/pdf/CR22/CR22.pdf That is to say, there's no correlation.

Essentially, unless a baby's penis is heinously deformed, he should keep his foreskin. There is no health benefit. There is only harm, and hurting babies for no reason is wrong in all circumstances. I repeat: There is NO REASON to needlessly hurt an infant, and especially not just for the hell of it or because the parents find it appealing. That is textbook definition WRONG. Even doing it for religious reasons is wrong, the same as mutilating a girl child's genitals for religious reasons is wrong.

Period.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

My parents chose to snip because it is was a cultural tradition for them - in the part of America they were in, almost everybody did it. Since it really doesn't seem too matter much one way or another as far as the health and effectiveness of the organ is concerned, I don't see it as being much of a big deal.

Actually, it's my only body modification, and so I like to show it off.

[Medusa]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

If I had a boy, I'd snip him. Why? Because I can. That's the only reason I have to actually give.

[JamesByrne]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

I repeat: There is NO REASON to needlessly hurt an infant, and especially not just for the hell of it or because the parents find it appealing. That is textbook definition WRONG. Even doing it for religious reasons is wrong, the same as mutilating a girl child's genitals for religious reasons is wrong.

Period.

Yer dead right. I agree 100%. Here theres signs up in hospital that its not done, it is dangerous and can have serious health consequences. We dont allow female genital mutilation, we grant asylum based on it happening. IMO there is absolutely no reason we should allow it for male children. If someone wants to do it as an adult for religious reasons, then fine. It will hurt more but if youre really dedicated then you wont mind so long as you know the little extra pain is because childrens rights are being protected

[Jembru]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

I really don't want anyone who has a child and chose to do this procedure to feel bad: I'm sure you thought carefully and have your reasons for the decision you made, but I'm afraid to me, it just seems barbaric. I wouldn't even doc a puppy's tail, never mind mutilate my own vulnerable, baby child. I understand if it is for religious reasons, because the belief that it gains God's favour clearly outweighs the fact that it is actual physical harm, but otherwise, I find it sick and kinda perverted to be honest.

[PhoenixMask]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

I think it should be left for the kid to choose when he grows up. Its natural to have skin there, why else would it be there? We have skin other places too and it is as it should be. If someone wishes to alter their body as an adult I see no problem with it. But to perform unnecessary surgery on a child when he doesn't have a say in the matter is awful. I know some people claim that foreskin becomes unclean. If a boy is taught to wash his penis properly it shouldn't cause any problems.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

I don't agree with doing it. If you want to be circumcised when you're older, fair enough, go and do it. But I think there needs to be consent for something that isn't about saving a life.

I didn't have my boys circumcised. Where I live it would be done only if there were obvious health problems.

In fact nobody in the Penry family (or my birth family) ever did this. As far as I know none of them were troubled by dirty willies...

I fact, I really don't get the whole cleanliness bit (not picking a fight here, BTW, just stating my own view.) I mean why not just chop everything off so people can wash their groins properly?? ;-)

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

Yer dead right. I agree 100%. Here theres signs up in hospital that its not done, it is dangerous and can have serious health consequences. We dont allow female genital mutilation, we grant asylum based on it happening. IMO there is absolutely no reason we should allow it for male children. If someone wants to do it as an adult for religious reasons, then fine. It will hurt more but if youre really dedicated then you wont mind so long as you know the little extra pain is because childrens rights are being protected

As Thalassa pointed out in the very first post of this thread, comparing circumcision to female genital mutilation is a red herring. The two things are EXTREMELY different. Let's let the herrings swim somewhere else.

If circumcision at birth is a cultural custom, them not doing it at birth and waiting until the individual is an adult will not fulfill the custom. It would be pointless.

Also, if you are going to be circumcised, doing it as a newborn is definitely the way to go. Infants heal much, much faster than adults.

As to whether it's barbaric or not... Well, I don't mind being a barbarian, since it looks like the term is being used to designate those who have customs with which others don't care for. I have a lot of customs like that, and, being the uncivilized schmuck that I am, as a barbarian I get to live free.

[earthgirl]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

As Thalassa pointed out in the very first post of this thread, comparing circumcision to female genital mutilation is a red herring. The two things are EXTREMELY different. Let's let the herrings swim somewhere else.

I disagree with you and I disagree with the OP on that. Genital mutilation is genital mutilation. It shouldn't be done to girls, and it shouldn't be done to boys. Because it is inherently wrong to harm a child. It is incredibly painful even for infants. Just because they can't say "well on a scale of 1 to 10, this hurts at about a 10..." doesn't mean that they don't feel it.

To illustrate that point, a study was done in which cortisol levels were measured from the blood samples of both cut and uncut newborn males, and surprise surprise, it turned out that the ones who'd had their genitals mutilated were in a whole metric eff-load of pain. And it doesn't matter if they remember it or not, because even unremembered childhood traumas still hold long-term psychological consequences.

In the case of genital mutilation, the boys do not bond properly with their mothers over the first two weeks of life, which is widely considered to be vital for proper mental, physical, and emotional development.

Defending it as a cultural practice is a poor argument, too. It is a cultural custom in some countries to stone women to death for minor social infractions, acceptable to beat a wife until she cannot move, acceptable for a man in his thirties to marry an eleven year old girl. Some cultural practices are in fact indefensible, namely the ones that cause significant pain or death to people who deserve neither.

Circumcision definitely falls into the "significant pain" category.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

I disagree with you and I disagree with the OP on that. Genital mutilation is genital mutilation.

Circumcision = cosmetic surgery which has little - if any - impact on the function of the penis. The intent of circumcision is to meet cultural standards of "normal" (ie. - most parents just have it done because everybody else they know does).

Female Genital Mutilation = life altering surgey which involves the complete or partial removal of a the clitoris. The intent of female genital mutilation is to turn the woman into a sexual cripple.

They look different to me.

In the case of genital mutilation, the boys do not bond properly with their mothers over the first two weeks of life, which is widely considered to be vital for proper mental, physical, and emotional development.

So millions and millions of circumcised men are currently walking around who have been unable to properly bond with their mothers - me amongst them - and are therefore emotionally retarded. I call bullshit, huny.

Defending it as a cultural practice is a poor argument, too. It is a cultural custom in some countries to stone women to death for minor social infractions, acceptable to beat a wife until she cannot move, acceptable for a man in his thirties to marry an eleven year old girl. Some cultural practices are in fact indefensible, namely the ones that cause significant pain or death to people who deserve neither.

I defended a cultural practice which involces a creating a merely cosmetic difference, like tattoos on a Maori. That seems like it's a bit different from stoning a person to death, beating a wife, or molesting a child. You really need to work on your ability to see important distinguishing differences.

[thalassa]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

In the case of genital mutilation, the boys do not bond properly with their mothers over the first two weeks of life, which is widely considered to be vital for proper mental, physical, and emotional development.

Bull. Show me the peer reviewed scientific studies.


Meanwhile...the APA has done an interesting year meta-study of 15 years worth of studies on the subject, which talks about the statistical benefits of circumcision.

[Shadow Dragon]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

Cordin, I have to completely disagree. Cutting a piece of a baby's body just for the sake of local tradition isn't something you can really defend. No first world nation should be doing it and most aren't. As for the merely cosmetic difference, you could say the same thing about cutting off the pinky toes or ear lobes. Those have even less possible uses than the foreskin but if anyone suggested doing that to a baby, we'd all think they're crazy.

[Jembru]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

Just putting this out there. You know my views: typical biased European.. I think it's weird as hell (and I hear Hell is a pretty weird place). BUT to those who are against circumcision. Would you feel so strongly about operating on a baby born with an extra toe, or cauliflower ears? Neither of these things would physically harm the child if left alone, but parents may feel it would be better to do the operation on the infant, rather than wait until he or she is older and can choose for themselves. If you're not in favour of circumcision, you might not see it as the same thing, but to parents who think it's normal and want their child to fit in and be like everyone else, can't you at least partially, understand where they were coming from? It will always, because of my own social background, seem bat shit and perverted to me, but I can at least to some extent, see the other point of view and don't believe anyone would make any decision about their child that they didn't believe was in their best interest.