Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

[thalassa]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

I'm skeptical. If that were the case, then you'd think the rates of HIV would be higher in Europe and Canada than the US, which it isn't. I highly doubt it's a big risk for health or STDs when you practice safe sex and have proper hygiene. People over here are just as clean and the rate of STDs is actually lower, and almost no one is circumcised.

You are forgetting about the very real differences of things like condom use, sex education, etc between Europe and Canada vs the US. All else being equal, circumcision *wouldn't* matter in STD rates, but those things are not equal. Realistically, statistically speaking, because more people here don't practice safer sex (as anyone that has ever worked in public health or reproductive health or sex ed would tell you...and I've done all three both as a civilian and in the military...there are a number of reasons for this), circumcision has been shown to result in lower STD transmission rates.

[Simon Slade]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

I disagree with calling it mutilation. Mutilation is defined by Webster's as:
1. to cut up or alter radically so as to make imperfect <the child mutilated the book with his scissors>
OR
2. to cut off or permanently destroy a limb or essential part of : cripple
I don't see circumcision fulfilling either of those. Removing a foreskin is not radically altering the penis, and it definitely isn't destroying it. Circumcised men get erections and have sex just like non-circumcised men. Very few people will ever know whether or not he's had it done, most prominent among them would be his sexual partners who would have already decided to have sex with him. I say that so long as the operation doesn't impede bodily function or destroy his social life, it's acceptable.

This is brought to you by someone that has been circumcised, has uneven testicles, and scrotal scarring (a hydrocele operation). None of them have ever impeded my sexual health or my social life, so I don't really see what the big deal is.

[Medusa]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

Ok so I see a lot of people saying I, as a parent (would be parent in the hypothetical world) would NOT do this to my child. I CHOOSE not to do so.

That's great. Some parents CHOOSE to. How is their opinion any less valid then those who don't? In the end it's all an opinion from a parent on what they would do for their child.

I BREAST FEED HOW DARE YOU DON'T!
I DIDN'T POTTY TRAIN TILL THEY WERE READY. HOW DARE YOU FORCE THEM EARLY!
I RAISED THEM RELIGIOUS. HOW DARE YOU DON'T!
I I I did THIS THIS THIS. HOW DARE YOU DON'T!

It's a choice.

If you don't agree with it. Don't do it. You actually don't need to give a reason. At all.

[Jembru]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

I'm gonna tip toe away and unsubscribe. This is getting ugly. A badly written paper has turned into a justification for being pro-circumcision or against. This is a pointless argument. Had I chosen to have a child circumcised, like hell would I say, 'yeah, you're right, I shouldn't have done that...' I'd fight to justify my choice to the bitter end. So why debate? Those from countries that don't practice, will always think it's weird, those from 50/50 countries, will lean one way or another but probably not see it as a huge deal either way.

Y'know, from my education on USA culture: the documentory 'South Park', I actually thought it was only Jewish families who did this. I'm not American, but if I were, I think I'd choose not to snip, based on what I have learnt in this thread. It seems to be an outdated practice based on some theory, probably with religion as it's justification, that snipping makes you less likely to sin and enjoy a healthy sexual appetite. This is clearly not even true, so even more pointless, so I think I'd want to protest that. I also have learnt that in the states, your personal well-being is someone elses responsibility: 'we don't know how to use birth control and practice safe sex like the rest of the Western world so need other people to choose to snip our willies so we don't catch STD's' what? Really? It's too far removed from the world I know and live in I'm afraid. Aaaanyway.. gonna unsubscribe. It's like watching a car crash over and over and over and over and.. you get my point.

[LiadanWillows]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

My fiance is not circumcised and it has never effected his sexual life or his hygiene in any way. I asked him if we have a son if he would want him to have a circumcision and he said no. The deal was then that he has to teach him how to properly clean himself haha. I understand both views on it really. Some of my coworkers (I am a nurse and therefor we see a lot of penis) think it is disgusting to have foreskin, which makes no sense to me at all. They say that they could never imagine having sex with a man that still has foreskin. However these particular people are just plain old ignorant. When the penis is erect most of the time the foreskin pulls back, so you do not even realize its there! ITS THE SAME DAMN THING. Meh.

On a second note in nursing school I witnessed a circumcision and it was horrific. They strap this poor baby down to a board and basically crush his foreskin off and given him nothing for pain except sugar water. Then they bleed for days and have painful urination. I just don't get it... I guess as far as "mutilation" is concerned... maybe it doesn't qualify as mutilation but it is traumatic and perhaps can even be considered torture for an infant to endure.

[Medusa]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

I'm gonna tip toe away and unsubscribe. This is getting ugly. A badly written paper has turned into a justification for being pro-circumcision or against. This is a pointless argument. Had I chosen to have a child circumcised, like hell would I say, 'yeah, you're right, I shouldn't have done that...' I'd fight to justify my choice to the bitter end. So why debate? Those from countries that don't practice, will always think it's weird, those from 50/50 countries, will lean one way or another but probably not see it as a huge deal either way.

Y'know, from my education on USA culture: the documentory 'South Park', I actually thought it was only Jewish families who did this. I'm not American, but if I were, I think I'd choose not to snip, based on what I have learnt in this thread. It seems to be an outdated practice based on some theory, probably with religion as it's justification, that snipping makes you less likely to sin and enjoy a healthy sexual appetite. This is clearly not even true, so even more pointless, so I think I'd want to protest that. I also have learnt that in the states, your personal well-being is someone elses responsibility: 'we don't know how to use birth control and practice safe sex like the rest of the Western world so need other people to choose to snip our willies so we don't catch STD's' what? Really? It's too far removed from the world I know and live in I'm afraid. Aaaanyway.. gonna unsubscribe. It's like watching a car crash over and over and over and over and.. you get my point.

You are right. Us Americans are just ignorant people who have no responsibilities and fuck like rabbits with aids.

[Jembru]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

You are right. Us Americans are just ignorant people who have no responsibilities and fuck like rabbits with aids.

Think you missed my irony. Was being sarcastic as this is what Thal said and I was like, 'what????' I don't believe it at all. I am quite sure our sexual habits are exactly the same...

[thalassa]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

Think you missed my irony. Was being sarcastic as this is what Thal said and I was like, 'what????' I don't believe it at all. I am quite sure our sexual habits are exactly the same...

A big difference:
Contraceptive use in the UK among women of childbearing age (16-49), 76%
Contraceptive use in the US among women of childbearing age (15-44), 62%

[Jembru]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

So much for unsubscribing! I guess I get resubscribed for replying? Anyway. (o.O) Really? Wh.. why? Considering our cultures only have fairly superficial differences, how can this be?

[Medusa]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

Think you missed my irony. Was being sarcastic as this is what Thal said and I was like, 'what????' I don't believe it at all. I am quite sure our sexual habits are exactly the same...

Oh I know. If I thought you were serious, I would have tore you a new a-hole for din din. But I know you are a very conscientiousness person. And would never be mean.

I just wanted to throw fuel to the fire.

[Corvus]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

So much for unsubscribing! I guess I get resubscribed for replying? Anyway. (o.O) Really? Wh.. why? Considering our cultures only have fairly superficial differences, how can this be?

I would think the cultures are more different than they appear

[thalassa]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

I would think the cultures are more different than they appear

^this...

One of which would be the overall religious-ness of the US--not only (statistically speaking) do we have more religious folks, we also have more fundamentalist/evangelical/conservative religious people. Which usually leads to big problems for sexual education in the US...and a myriad of other areas.

I'm a pragmatist...a pragmatist with a background in biology (meaning I like data) and medicine (and yes, I've seen more than one circumcision and the standard procedure where I worked was to use a local anesthesia)... I really don't care whether someone else circumcises their child or not, its none of my business (although the hubris involved is a bit idiotic)...its none of the government's business...its a decision between a mother, a father and a doctor. And to make that decision, a parent should know that the decision to circumcise in this country can lessen STD transmission rates, that needing a circumcision later in life has more associated risks, that there are very realistic logistical issues involved (particularly if your child is going to be in daycare where people might not be familiar with hygiene for an uncircumcised child--a friend of mine whose son is uncircumcised has been in and out of the doctor's office for infections and inflammation at three of the four daymcares he's been in)...as much as a parent should know that there are associated risks with the procedure itself (including that we have no idea how much pain it might cause--in the few circumcisions I've seen, the babies were more pissed at being tied down, as well as whether or not that has any lasting effects), if it is done improperly. If its done properly, its really not that big of a deal.

I might add that in the only real way to make a determination of a difference in sexual pleasure for the male with regard to snip or no snip (studies involving adult men before and after circumcision), there is almost entirely no statistical difference, though some individual studies have varying results (and yes, I acknowledge it is wikipedia, but its the only place with a handy dandy chart of a good number of studies on the matter).

But really, this is one of the least significant decisions my husband and I have made as parents.

__________________________________________

This is probably one of my favorite debates...its so fun when it pops up again (that was an awful pun). TBH, the hubby just read the thread over my shoulder and about laughed his head off (and Corbin, he mostly agrees with you).

[DanieMarie]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

You are forgetting about the very real differences of things like condom use, sex education, etc between Europe and Canada vs the US. All else being equal, circumcision *wouldn't* matter in STD rates, but those things are not equal. Realistically, statistically speaking, because more people here don't practice safer sex (as anyone that has ever worked in public health or reproductive health or sex ed would tell you...and I've done all three both as a civilian and in the military...there are a number of reasons for this), circumcision has been shown to result in lower STD transmission rates.

I don't know...I find the lower condom use to be a MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH bigger issue. Like HUGE. Because, even if a guy is circumcised, he can STILL contract HIV and other STDs. If I were working for public health, I think it's more important to combat the issue of safer sex and sex education. I know that there are religious barriers to this in the US, but that's a PROBLEM. A big one.

There is even less difference between Canadian culture and US than UK and US, but this is one that tends to stump me...how do religious views have the ability to influence public education and public health in a country that is supposed to have a separation of church and state? Where I grew up, folks are quite religious...the conservative baptist church is huge in my hometown, the mormon is fairly large, and the catholics remain steady. BUT religion is seen as a private thing, and you still do sex ed in school.

[thalassa]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

I don't know...I find the lower condom use to be a MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH bigger issue. Like HUGE. Because, even if a guy is circumcised, he can STILL contract HIV and other STDs. If I were working for public health, I think it's more important to combat the issue of safer sex and sex education. I know that there are religious barriers to this in the US, but that's a PROBLEM. A big one.

I don't disagree at all.

But in the meantime, as a pragmatist, I don't think there is enough evidence to sit around screaming condemnations at people (I am not saying that *you* are doing this, personally) that have chosen (for whatever reasons) to circumcise their children about the (supposed) abuse that they are dealing to their male children. When it is done properly (and it overwhelmingly is done properly), its just not a big deal...and there are (scientifically supported) public and personal health reasons why someone might choose for their child to be circumcised. And for some families, there are other compelling (whether one agrees with them or not) reasons that they have decided to do so.

If you don't want your child circumcised, don't do it. If you do, do. Its a bit like the abortion debate...

[DanieMarie]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

Yeah I think it works both ways though. It always kind of bothers me when people for it go off about how "unclean" it is not to do it. It's sort of like, so every guy I know is unclean? It just seems a bit silly when you've seen the other side of things. There's also a lot of stuff about the lack of freedom over here for places that have banned it, but there are reasons those countries did so.