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    #31
    How do you account for the many supernatural experiences that people have, such as encounters with god(s), ghosts, spirits, etc.?
    some are the following:
    delusions
    drugs
    fear
    boredom
    imagination
    lies
    reasons for why when we can't explain things
    scapegoat

    you know, the usual human emotions
    Satan is my spirit animal

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      #32
      [/quote]

      Go to a concert, a sports stadium, or watch nationalists shout praises to their country. There is a parallel to the worship of the divine. When you see something as so great, maybe even greater than yourself, you can become quite devout. Also, we're pack animals that tend to be organized hierarchical, God just fills in the role of "leader of the tribe". (or nation, clan, kingdom, etc...).
      I was Hadad2008 when I joined Feb 2008.
      I became Abdishtar this spring.
      Then, after the Great Crash, I was reborn as Spartacandream!

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        #33
        [/quote]

        This response is just for friendly debate.

        It is scientifically quantifiable that humans (I'm excluding other forms of life for the moment) run on electromagnetic energy, along with other forms of mechanical energy. If we can look at all forms of energy (including dark energy), and accept that there are forces (intelligent or not) that are still as yet undiscovered, then could you accept the possibility that what gives humans their sentience is a form of energy that is undiscovered? And if that energy/energies is what can be identified as what we call a "soul" or our human sentience, you must come to accept the law of physics that states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Also, since energy is not organic, it cannot simply wither and decay.

        What happens to the energy that powered our body/brain/sentience once we die? I think that is a more potent question in terms of stepping up scientific inquiry.

        Oh, I have a little interesting Discovery-esque tidbit I found recently that actually kind of puts a whole "Space Odyssey" spin on this whole "existence" thing. Astrophysics has taken the turn for the mind blowing in terms of the actual beginning of the universe. Ever hear the theory that the Big Bang was actually the impact of two flat, atom-thin separate universes drawn together every few billion eons or so? Yeah, they then expand outward until there is nothing left. And yes, there has been physical evidence to support the development of this theory. Cool idea huh?

        And there are dozens more universe theories just as viable. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, humanity. ;D
        It is possible to believe in something and fail to live up to it. -Dr. Wilson (House Md)

        Comment


          #34
          [/quote]

          Of course it is! :P Welcome to PF!

          [quote author=Honeysuckle137 link=topic=384.msg21201#msg21201 date=1291937135]
          including dark energy
          [/quote]

          Care to elaborate? What do you mean with "dark energy" and how is it different from the low amount of electricity (chemically created) in our nerves and brains?

          [quote author=Honeysuckle137 link=topic=384.msg21201#msg21201 date=1291937135]
          then could you accept the possibility that what gives humans their sentience is a form of energy that is undiscovered?
          [/quote]

          Not everything is really known about the specific workings of our brains and such research is, I presume, in progress.
          However, to speak of an undiscovered form of energy responsible for our sentience is purely hypothetical until discovered.

          [quote author=Honeysuckle137 link=topic=384.msg21201#msg21201 date=1291937135]
          And if that energy/energies is what can be identified as what we call a "soul" or our human sentience, you must come to accept the law of physics that states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Also, since energy is not organic, it cannot simply wither and decay.

          What happens to the energy that powered our body/brain/sentience once we die? I think that is a more potent question in terms of stepping up scientific inquiry.
          [/quote]

          The "withering and dying" part in my post was somewhat meant metaphorically.
          Well the energy or chemical electricity in our bodies is created by food.
          (cell membranes, potassium in, sodium out... ugh I really don't want to explain all that right now)
          When we die, we stop making it, but the remaining energy is still there.
          It happens sometimes that a dead body slightly twitches some time after the cessation of heart functioning, which I presume is the remaining energy in question.
          Anyway, the remaining energy is either transferred into heat or grounded if I'm not mistaken.

          But, not meaning to discourage those that believe in a soul, you could always argue that the soul is not material and bla bla bla...
          And now I will express a quote in mime...

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            #35

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              #36
              for a time, but at one point I just stopped caring because in this world of extremely differing ways of personal perception, the religious opinion of one person seems to have little to no value and expressing it really doesn't change all that much (unless you're rich, famous or both).

              I've always kept my opinion(s) towards religion/spirituality to myself besides on this forum, because well... no one asks about it in my everyday life lol.
              And I think that's great just the way it is.
              And now I will express a quote in mime...

              Comment


                #37
                I was running the place...we had to misappropriate the Academics section

                I'm on and off, but I do look for this thread when I show up, so if y'all have any questions for us nonbelievers, ask away!

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                  #38
                  Be Excellent to each other - or something will Happen to you.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by Sin View Post
                    ooh ooh oohh!! *jumps up and down waving my hand in the air* memememmememememememeee!!!!


                    As an athiest how do you approach the subject of dualism and that of the soul? Do you have a soul? Or are you just a body?
                    Sorry to spam - I'm going to pick through this thread and answer questions that I haven't answered here yet. Why? Because I'm bored, and this is one of the few threads I feel comfortable posting in

                    I view "soul" as being just another word for "conscious thought". Most animals don't really have conscious thought, at least, not in any discernible way, but some animals are a bit brighter. Most mammals, for example, I would say have a "soul" in the same way that humans do, but don't misunderstand me: I do not believe that there is an "energy" or any sort of physical evidence (nor will there ever be, IMO) to point to a "soul", because I view it as being a byproduct of everything that we ARE (our intelligence, reasoning, etc).

                    Face it - we are a unique animal in many regards, and part of what makes us unique is that our physical bodies have allowed us the opportunity to promote our own intelligence. It's not just the opposable thumb - apes have those, and they aren't as bright as we are. It's not just the brain - dolphins are lauded as being just as intelligent as we are (even as far as social conduct, murder, rape, etc), but they lack the ability to do much with their bodies but swim (although they do it very well). We also have the ability of linguistics, which allows us to do something as insignificant as "name things"...which is a much bigger deal than you would assume: http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb05/hues.aspx

                    All of these insignificant differences puts us at the top of the heap. A poor analogy: Roughly the same amount and type of material goes into building a Hyundai Accent as a Ferarri. Performance differs It's all how they were "put together".

                    So do I have a soul? By my own definition, yes, but that's just my perception of what people refer to as a soul. Do I believe that there will be some semblance of existence once I'm dead? Nope.

                    ---------- Post added at 01:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:13 AM ----------

                    Originally posted by Madness View Post
                    Ok atheists, put your thinking caps on!
                    It's on. It's made out of tinfoil, does that matter?

                    Originally posted by Madness View Post
                    Why does humanity seem to have an innate desire and need to worship something, or someone? Why is there such a universal religious sense within humanity?
                    Hrm. As much as I'd like to break these two questions up, I can't think of a way - so please bear with me

                    I believe that due to the evolution of our brains, we have more "questions" than other animals do. The only thing a question is good for, is to get an answer...so the "how does that work" or "why does that happen" is simply part of our evolutionary make-up. I imagine it would have something to do with hundreds of thousands of years of bouncing between a variety of near-uninhabitable environments, but I digress

                    Unfortunately, just because a person can ask a question doesn't mean that they're capable of providing their own answer. Even more unfortunately, for many people, AN answer is better than the CORRECT answer. Don't believe me? The vast majority of the people that I work with on computers ask me what I did to fix the problem. If it's too technical, "magic" works just as well as the real answer, and it's a helluva lot easier to explain (or not explain, you get my meaning ). People simply don't care if the answer that they have is the RIGHT answer until it affects them, and religion is just full of vague words with fuzzy meanings. Me personally? I'd rather have NO answer than the WRONG answer. An answer means we can stop looking, but if it's wrong, then we probably shouldn't stop

                    [
                    Originally posted by Madness View Post
                    How do you account for the many supernatural experiences that people have, such as encounters with god(s), ghosts, spirits, etc.?
                    I know this has been answered by others, but the short answer is: it depends on the situation.

                    If you'd prefer the "broad" answer, I would have to say that it's because people rely so much on their imperfect senses without realising how imperfect they are, and making assumptions that may have more to do with their mood than anything else. It happens Just to give you an idea of the sort of thing that can cause some of the above (and this is by no means an answer to every event, but it expresses how poor our senses can be at establishing the Truth): http://www.cracked.com/article_18828...sightings.html

                    ---------- Post added at 01:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:24 AM ----------

                    Originally posted by Honeysuckle137 View Post
                    This response is just for friendly debate.

                    It is scientifically quantifiable that humans (excluding other forms of life for the moment) run on electromagnetic energy, along with other forms of mechanical energy.
                    True.


                    Originally posted by Honeysuckle137 View Post
                    If we can look at all forms of energy (including dark energy), and accept that there are forces (intelligent or not) that are still as yet undiscovered, then could you accept the possibility that what gives humans their sentience is a form of energy that is undiscovered?
                    Tentatively, yes. The reason that I say Tentatively, is that there are no questions that I've come across (so far) that *require* some other form of energy, or a "soul" or anything like that. To use an analogy (I know it's kind of a Straw-man, but bear with me please ), one of the reasons that we're pretty sure Bigfoot doesn't exist, is that not only is there no *evidence* that it exists, there's also no "niche" for a creature like that to "fit in" to any of the areas where they're purported to exist. The balance of the ecosystem would be drastically different if Bigfoot hung out in those areas, so not only can we not FIND any Bigfeet, but we really don't have a reason to assume that they're there.

                    That's more or less how I approach the "electrical energy" argument: If there isn't a *reason* for it to be there, and there's no evidence to support that it's there, why assume that it's there but we haven't found it yet?

                    Don't get me wrong - we discover things all of the time that we didn't know existed...but really, over the last 50 years or so hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of real scientists have studied this stuff. If there was ANY indication that their research could lead to something, wouldn't they still be doing it? Instead, what we end up with are real scientists that have failed (and moved onto other fields of work), or "real" scientists that also failed, but are willing to lie through their teeth to sell books (and probably because they don't want to admit that they may have been wrong).

                    So yes, technically speaking I can agree that there may be some as-yet-undiscovered-form-of-energy-within-the-human-body that we don't understand and that accounts for things like magic and conscience or whatever...but because I don't see a reason for that energy to exist, I have a difficult time accepting that (even as a POSSIBILITY).


                    Originally posted by Honeysuckle137 View Post
                    And if that energy/energies is what can be identified as what we call a "soul" or our human sentience, you must come to accept the law of physics that states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Also, since energy is not organic, it cannot simply wither and decay.
                    Um...this is a misnomer.

                    It is true that energy cannot be destroyed, but Newton's Laws also dictate a significant loss whenever energy changes form, as well as the fact that we aren't quite capable of converting some forms of energy into others (for example, some chemical elements are only found at the core of the sun because it requires such vast amounts of heat and pressure to create them).

                    Energy does not just "change form" all by itself. It requires a mechanism for the change to occur, and according to what we know about the human body, no such mechanism exists.

                    Originally posted by Honeysuckle137 View Post
                    What happens to the energy that powered our body/brain/sentience once we die? I think that is a more potent question in terms of stepping up scientific inquiry.
                    The same thing that happens to the potential energy in your car when you disconnect the battery. Only with our bodies, that energy gets "used up" when/as our cells die off.

                    Originally posted by Honeysuckle137 View Post
                    Oh, I have a little interesting Discovery-esque tidbit I found recently that actually kind of puts a whole "Space Odyssey" spin on this whole "existence" thing. Astrophysics has taken the turn for the mind blowing in terms of the actual beginning of the universe. Ever hear the theory that the Big Bang was actually the impact of two flat, atom-thin separate universes drawn together every few billion eons or so? Yeah, they then expand outward until there is nothing left. And yes, there has been physical evidence to support the development of this theory. Cool idea huh?
                    It is I would really like to be a Quantum Physicist so I could spend my time making up ridiculous shit

                    Seriously? I can't wrap my brain around more than 4 dimensions, and understanding something like the above requires something I'm just not capable of

                    Originally posted by Honeysuckle137 View Post
                    And there are dozens more universe theories just as viable. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, humanity. ;D
                    Aye Imagining the Tenth Dimension is AWESOME

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                      #40

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                        #41
                        Allow me to lend a machete to your intellectual thicket. ~ Captain Jack Sparrow

                        sigpic

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                          #42
                          Originally posted by cesara View Post
                          What is the practical purpose for emotions from an atheistic perspective? (and not just human ones....animals have been shown to possess them as well....elephants, for example)
                          Well, obviously I'm no behaviorologist or whatever, so this is just my perspective on emotions

                          Depending on the emotion, they can be quite powerful - the right emotion can help you survive in a crisis, breed when you really don't feel like it, kill an animal that you would otherwise be unable to kill, and basically allow animals to be something other than automatons. A scared animal can jump farther, run faster, and tolerate far more pain than an animal that's relaxed and at rest.

                          That being said, the word "purpose" kind of implies design, so I just want to be clear that I, personally, believe that evolution has "held onto" emotion because in larger animals it's necessary. While some types of emotion seem to belong only to human beings, we obviously can't know for sure what the full range of emotions other animals feel. It's a conceivable notion that some animals feel certain emotions that we are simply incapable of feeling.

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                            #43

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                              #44
                              Originally posted by westwoden View Post
                              who do atheists look up to as their 'Higher Power'?
                              I'm an atheist. Though it says Satanist over my religion area. I am considered an athestic Satanist. For me, it's myself. I bet most will probably say the same thing.
                              Satan is my spirit animal

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                                #45
                                Originally posted by westwoden View Post
                                who do atheists look up to as their 'Higher Power'?
                                I would agree with Medusa.

                                The "higher power" would be me.

                                Or maybe somebody pointing a gun at my head (the atheist's version of The Threat of Hell).
                                Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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