Ask an Atheïst

[Denarius]

Why do you think, according to atheists who put forth such a stance, there must be one true god/pantheon?

Two things here. One, most of the people atheists argue with are monotheists. Thus most arguments are formulated within that context.

Two, it's not saying that there must be one true god/pantheon. What it is saying is that there are lots of gods out there, and they all have just as much evidence proving their existence. None. So, it's absolute nonsense to say that your god/s are real and all the other ones are false.

It is not (usually) used as an argument against religion, rather the notion that your beliefs are true and everyone else's beliefs are false. If an atheist is using that argument against a pagan, then they are doing some serious context-dropping.

I favour the Socratic method, just ask people questions about their religion. Why do you believe the things you do? Why is that? Etc... It gets people thinking critically about the nature of belief and why they believe the things they do.

Ultimately much more fruitful, and besides I don't really have any reason to dissuade people from believing what they want to believe. A good conversation is a much better goal, and regurgitating points from Dawkins' latest book is hardly conducive to that end.

[ThorsSon]

I've been wondering about something for a while now, and it prompts this question based off hearing various atheist counterarguments on the internet (namely YouTube). This something is hearing atheists say "how do you know your god is the right god?" or "sorry Thor worshiper, Zeus is the right god" and many other statements/questions of the like. And more famously, Richard Dawkins in this video clip: http://youtu.be/_6iss-xq2-E?t=2m57s
It bugs me because it makes them come across as heavily influenced by the Abrahamic religions.

So my question, now become two, is:
1. What do you think of people who make this kind of statement?
2. Why do you think, according to atheists who put forth such a stance, there must be one true god/pantheon?

That argument is made precisely against the claim of One True God.
When that line of reasoning is presented, it is in the face of the majority of religious people (aka adherents to the Abrahamic faiths).

It is a valid response to monotheists who try to condescend to atheists with Pascal's Wager.

When presented with Pascal's Wager (as so many Christians like to do, when confronting an atheist), it is perfectly valid to point out that I only believe in 1 fewer god than they do.

They pretend that they can't understand how anyone could disbelieve in a god, yet they disbelieve in all but one.

Plus, it also works to point out the folly of Pascal's Wager... what if you chose the wrong god? (given that Pascal's Wager is all about hedging your bets for the after-life)

[Hekla]

[ThorsSon]

Huh, I didn't make the connection to Pascal's Wager before. Funny how the brain works (or doesn't). Still, comparing pagan gods to each other is a silly and stupid argument, and I have heard it multiple times, especially since that is still used toward monotheists. Why put pagan gods into the equation in the first place? Why not compare the biblical god to a Hindu god? (I don't know enough about Hinduism to make the statement I want to make, so I'll just leave it there). I get name recognition, but surely these atheists look into pagan customs from the past and see that (more or less) people didn't have one true pantheon mentality. I don't know where I'm going with this.

I guess because I grew up with an "all or nothing" view of theism (you either believe in them all or believe in none), I just find it disappointing that people stoop to this level. But, if you gotta make a point... /shrug

Greek, Roman and Norse mythology is studied in most American schools. So, most Americans are aware of those deities... and do not believe in them.

So, when confronted by someone who is demanding to know why I don't believe in God, or is presenting Pascal's Wager, or any of the myriad arguments that I tend to get (for the record, it is almost ALWAYS a Christian that is trying to talk me out of atheism)... I find it very handy to turn their very own arguments against them but replace "God" with "Thor/Odin/Zeus/Mars/etc"... they always reply with "but I don't believe in 'Thor/Odin/Zeus/Mars/etc'"... to which I reply, "exactly."

And as I said, it is almost always a Christian who is trying to argue with me about my atheism, and as such, I tailor my argument to them.

In the context of Richard Dawkins and the like, the same is true. most of the religious people in the USA are Christians. World-Wide, the majority is still Christian, then Muslim, then Jewish, with everything else making up a tiny fraction of the world's population... Since most religious people are of the Abrahamic faiths, most religious atrocities come from those faiths (partially because of the nature of the faith, but mostly just due to raw numbers)... so that is the target that needs to be addressed most.

[thalassa]

So, when confronted by someone who is demanding to know why I don't believe in God, or is presenting Pascal's Wager, or any of the myriad arguments that I tend to get (for the record, it is almost ALWAYS a Christian that is trying to talk me out of atheism)... I find it very handy to turn their very own arguments against them but replace "God" with "Thor/Odin/Zeus/Mars/etc"... they always reply with "but I don't believe in 'Thor/Odin/Zeus/Mars/etc'"... to which I reply, "exactly."

And as I said, it is almost always a Christian who is trying to argue with me about my atheism, and as such, I tailor my argument to them.

Probably because (at least in Greek Paganism) there has historically been a decent tradition of atheism, agnostism, and untraditional ideas about the nature of the gods. And because...with the exception of some hard polytheists, most Pagans (at least in my experience) are fully able to admit that they might be incorrect--thats what happens when pluralism is a basic assumption of belief.

[anunitu]

[Hekla]

[Ektor]

In the context of Richard Dawkins and the like, the same is true. most of the religious people in the USA are Christians. World-Wide, the majority is still Christian, then Muslim, then Jewish, with everything else making up a tiny fraction of the world's population... Since most religious people are of the Abrahamic faiths, most religious atrocities come from those faiths (partially because of the nature of the faith, but mostly just due to raw numbers)... so that is the target that needs to be addressed most.

Actually it's something like Islam>Christianism>Buddhism>Hinduism. There's a lot of non-monotheistic religions out there, and you really shouldn't take the arguments Christians use and think they have anything to do with the way a pagan believes in stuff.

[MaskedOne]

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Christianity + Islam outnumber everyone else put together.

Judaism (numerically, not politically, economically or militarily) is sort of a side item these days globally but there are areas where they have regional dominance. Hindus and Buddhists command sizable numbers by comparison to anyone not under the Christian or Islamic umbrella. Otherwise combined, they come in about even with Islam and still trail way behind any united count of Christianity.

[ThorsSon]

There's a lot of non-monotheistic religions out there, and you really shouldn't take the arguments Christians use and think they have anything to do with the way a pagan believes in stuff.

I never said anything that one should. I explained that the argument Hekla brought up is specifically an argument against monotheism.

[Roknrol]

I've been wondering about something for a while now, and it prompts this question based off hearing various atheist counterarguments on the internet (namely YouTube). This something is hearing atheists say "how do you know your god is the right god?" or "sorry Thor worshiper, Zeus is the right god" and many other statements/questions of the like. And more famously, Richard Dawkins in this video clip: http://youtu.be/_6iss-xq2-E?t=2m57s
It bugs me because it makes them come across as heavily influenced by the Abrahamic religions.

Mostly they use Christianity as the basis for religion because it's one of the more popularly obnoxious religions around. The loud believers, etc...much like Atheism is judged based on the mentioned assholes, they base their arguments on Christianity. For the most part they don't apply to the Pagan religions, true enough, but the underlying logic *does*. If I've come to the conclusion that there's not an all-powerful, all-knowing, eternal God because I haven't seen evidence of Him, then the same conclusion can be had of any of the Pagan Gods as well (as long as I have not, in fact, seen evidence ). I've probably rambled more than is proper - let's move on

So my question, now become two, is:
1. What do you think of people who make this kind of statement?

I think that people that talk like that are assholes. I avoided becoming an Atheist for a couple of years while I decided whether or not I wanted to be a part of a group that had these jerks as their "leaders". Of course, eventually it was hard to argue with...I was an Atheist, and if that means that these guys are in the same group, so be it.

2. Why do you think, according to atheists who put forth such a stance, there must be one true god/pantheon?

Well, I have a couple of different guesses here (I personally don't believe that there must be one...I don't see a reason, and I don't see evidence, so whether one or millions, I don't think any of them exist).

I think that their approach stems from debating with individuals, honestly. When they talk to a crowd, they forget that the guy in the front row might believe something different than the guy behind him. If Richard Dawkins, for example, asked you specifically why you believed in your pantheon, he wouldn't expect you to argue in favor of another. It simplifies the conversation without having a whole crapload of qualifiers.

Also, they think it's amusing to refer to Gods such as Zeus because they think it's absolutely ludicrous that anyone in todays day and age would believe in them. In more recent years they've moved from Greek and Roman Gods to things like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, because they realized that more people believe in Zeus

Now, don't get me wrong - I absolutely believe that people should be out there asking the questions, publically, to bring awareness to the idea that you don't need religion. If you want it, fine, keep it, but if you are struggling so hard to find one that fits you...well...maybe one doesn't? But I do think that their approach is one fraught with anger and frustration of an inability to control other people. My personal stance is this: You have your religion or you don't. If you keep it out of my yard, I honestly do not care. If it makes you happy, that makes me happy, and so forth.

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I don't think I implied anything about belief in my posts, nor any implication of security in belief. All I was wondering was why atheists sound so much like monotheists, and now that the connection has been made a sort of 'slam' to Pascal's Wager, I have my answer.

Many of us come from a monotheistic background. A lot of Atheists drew their "conclusions" from the fact that they hated believers, or that they were incapable of honestly following the tennets of the belief that they wanted to hold so badly. They are bitter, and angry, and think that they are smarter than you are. It's a sad fact, but the truth...that's their opinion. Not that it's much different from the opinions of most believers, mind you...but they're obnoxious enough to voice it.

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Actually it's something like Islam>Christianism>Buddhism>Hinduism. There's a lot of non-monotheistic religions out there, and you really shouldn't take the arguments Christians use and think they have anything to do with the way a pagan believes in stuff.

So ask us questions from a Pagan perspective The publicity videos are made with the assumption that most of the watcher are Christian. If they were to voice it from a Pagan perspective, most of their watchers would say, "Oh, yeah, knock down 'witchcraft'...why don't you take on a real religion." It's a sad fact of being in a minority group, but you're going to be largely ignored when you're a member of a larger group (believers in religion).

[satanic witch]

[ThorsSon]

why are some atheists so mean and hateful when it comes to religion some of you are like christians on steroids in the hate department. i know alot of you are fine with religion though.

Part of it is simply because some people are assholes.

Part of it may be because they are angry about injustice sand atrocities that they see brought about by religion.

It is probably a different reason for each one.

[Gleb]

Part of it is simply because some people are assholes.

Part of it may be because they are angry about injustice sand atrocities that they see brought about by religion.

It is probably a different reason for each one.

Perhaps it is just because they think that the religious stuff is just strange and they act accordingly to the person who follows that religion. What do you think?

[Roknrol]

why are some atheists so mean and hateful when it comes to religion some of you are like christians on steroids in the hate department. i know alot of you are fine with religion though.

Because some people are assholes. You may as well ask why some Wiccans are rabid believers, or why some Christians preach love but show hate. Some people just think that their experiences trump everyone elses, and you're wrong if you disagree with them.

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Part of it is simply because some people are assholes.

Part of it may be because they are angry about injustice sand atrocities that they see brought about by religion.

It is probably a different reason for each one.

True - sometimes it's because they had a particularly bad event involving religion...sometimes they are floored by what some "believers" can get away with (like those folks in PA that have now killed two of their kids by not getting them insulin for their diabetes, opting instead to let God fix them). Some of it are the other atrocities that are committed in the name of religion - everything from starvation to slavery, torture to genocide. I think the brutal reality though (as we've both said above) is that some people are assholes. If the reason wasn't religion they'd find one that's just as ridiculous.

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Perhaps it is just because they think that the religious stuff is just strange and they act accordingly to the person who follows that religion. What do you think?

Most Atheists that I know don't find religion to be strange, per se. They think they understand why people believe (at least on the surface). But Atheists think that they're smart enough to see under that crunchy outer shell and see the gooey bits inside, and they wonder why other people can't see those gooey bits themselves