What is LIBERTY?

[Caelia]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

I'm starting to think this isn't about liberty anymore. Seriously, there's been a major disconnection between the topic and what has evidently been a very personal issue. However, in my very sad attempt at roping the topic back in...

I guess the question is-since it seems established that liberty is something to do with human rights-how does it get applied? How does one ensure that liberties apply to all the population and not just certain socio-economic classes?

[DanieMarie]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

I'm starting to think this isn't about liberty anymore. Seriously, there's been a major disconnection between the topic and what has evidently been a very personal issue. However, in my very sad attempt at roping the topic back in...

I guess the question is-since it seems established that liberty is something to do with human rights-how does it get applied? How does one ensure that liberties apply to all the population and not just certain socio-economic classes?

I think it's impossible to apply it with 100% participation and accuracy, because there will always be things like apathy and misunderstanding to deal with, but I believe that democracy -is- important and instrumental in this, and with it has to come education (both in general and about the political system) and transparency of information. In a perfect world, we have leaders we choose, who are 100% accountable to us. We don't live in a perfect world but we should strive towards this as much as we can. I think even remembering that our leaders are accountable to US is important. Even corporations are pretty much dependent on us (with no customers, they have no profits) but people forget these things, or just don't care (more dangerous, I think).

Apathy is the enemy of liberty.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

I think it's impossible to apply it with 100% participation and accuracy, because there will always be things like apathy and misunderstanding to deal with, but I believe that democracy -is- important and instrumental in this, and with it has to come education (both in general and about the political system) and transparency of information. In a perfect world, we have leaders we choose, who are 100% accountable to us. We don't live in a perfect world but we should strive towards this as much as we can. I think even remembering that our leaders are accountable to US is important. Even corporations are pretty much dependent on us (with no customers, they have no profits) but people forget these things, or just don't care (more dangerous, I think).

Apathy is the enemy of liberty.

Beneath all the angry rhetoric, Denarius is agreeing with you on the issue of apathy - what he is calling "laziness" is actually apathy toward self improvement. He has agreed that not all those who are poor are like this, and you all have agreed that some are. You both agree - the thing that is making you all argue is that you have become so polarized in this discussion that you have all forgotten that there is a middle where you are both right.

If Denarius would drop the tough guy routine, others would be better able to see that his point, while not an absolute in all cases, actually does have some merit.

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DanieMarie, I agree with you entirely on the theory of accountability and transparency. I have a question for you - is it possible for a government to be completely transparent, or are there conditions under which transparency (which I am imagining that you mean something like "the inner workings are clearly visible to all citizens [who care to look])" would be a bad idea?

If so, what are they?

If not, why not?

[DanieMarie]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

Hmmmm that's a tough question. I don't know if I really have a good answer to that, because I'm inclined to think that people have a right to know the workings of the government they elect, but on the other hand people aren't always aware or informed about how things work. I guess it's important to know, but I think leaving important things like taxation issues (which people often don't understand) to direct referendum can be a mistake. Overall, I think the less people know, the more they're likely to become apathetic. Also, the less people know, the less likely they are to be able to make informed voting decisions, the the less accountability is able to happen.

Like I said, we don't live in a perfect system, but this is something to strive towards. And the more people make demands on their government (in a democratic system anyway) the more chance there is towards democracy working as it should.
Also, +1 for a representational system. I'm a fan. I like knowing my vote is never wasted.

[thalassa]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

Yes, there are times when transparency is a bad thing...like OPSEC (Operational Security). You, the public, do not need to know where ship A is headed at time B to location C for for operation D. When that happens, worst case scenario, people die and expensive shit gets blown up...best case scenario, thousands and thousands of dollars are spent to change (if possible) time B and (if possible) location so that ship A (or other asset) can achieve operation D or to take counter-measures to avoid casualties of equipment and personnel.

Or...the inner workings of investigative work and networks for law enforcement. Well crap, I could make a longer list but I have a munchkin throwing chalk over the balcony...its a bit distracting. But I'm sure you get the idea.

[DanieMarie]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

Yes, there are times when transparency is a bad thing...like OPSEC (Operational Security). You, the public, do not need to know where ship A is headed at time B to location C for for operation D. When that happens, worst case scenario, people die and expensive shit gets blown up...best case scenario, thousands and thousands of dollars are spent to change (if possible) time B and (if possible) location so that ship A (or other asset) can achieve operation D or to take counter-measures to avoid casualties of equipment and personnel.

Or...the inner workings of investigative work and networks for law enforcement. Well crap, I could make a longer list but I have a munchkin throwing chalk over the balcony...its a bit distracting. But I'm sure you get the idea.

LOL yeah i agree.

I think it's best to go by guidelines such as those proposed by organisations such as transparency international. A lot of it has more to do with disclosing where funding is coming from, where tax dollars go, how bodies such as education and health care are managed, etc.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

I was actually thinking along the lines that Thalassa was - military and security. Obviously, it's not wise to tell the enemy where you are, what you intend to do, and the equipment you have at your disposal to do it. But then that also means that there will always be a certain amount of secrecy regarding where some of the money is going. This is OK, and completely necessary.


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I agree with you completely, DanieMarie, that lack of transparency leads to apathy. When people feel that important information is being withheld, they feel that they have no voice, which makes them feel powerless, and, feeling powerless, they give up. This is very true.

But there is an opposite problem which also leads to apathy - and that is too much information. Economic bills are a good example.

In order to understand them, a person needs to be a specialist in the subject, which involves understanding complex math, law, and the psychology of human nature. I don't know about you, but that isn't a description of me.

When I try to understand them, I quickly get in way over my head. When that happens, I throw up my hands and give up. Literally, there is too much information - I can't wade through it, so I give up. This is apathy from too much info.

What I would really like is somebody who can say:

Here are the benefits
Here are the drawbacks
Here is what we intend to do to maximize the benefits and minimize the drawbacks.

That I could understand. But what generally happens is that one "team" will give the benefits, while their opposition gives the drawbacks and then makes a counter proposal of their own by listing the benefits of their own proposal, at which point the other team starts giving the drawbacks... Now I'm in over my head, and I end up feeling that I can't trust anybody because everybody seems to be giving only one side of a two sided story.

If somebody could point out both the benefits and the drawbacks - since everything brings both - I suspect that people would feel more inclined to trust them, and would be able to shake off some of that feeling of helplessness.

[DanieMarie]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

I think part of transparency is communicating those sorts of things

One complaint about Harmonized Sales Tax in BC was transparency. The issue was that Provincial Sales tax (PST) and General Sales Tax (GST) were to be merged. Some items were exempt from GST that would not be exempt from HST. People felt that the BC Liberal government 'lied' to them about plans to implement an HST system/ They didn't...on their election platform they stated 'It's not part of our platform at this time' and that was the truth, then. Later it came into play as the federal government had cut a deal to do so. It was a system that would have really benefited the province, but they did such a HORRIBLE job of communicating the benefits, especially right from the beginning before misinformation spread like wildfire. To this day (it was voted down in a referendum, something I didn't agree with...tax policy should never be left to direct referendum), most people in BC still can't tell you the difference between a Value Added Tax (like the current GST or the HST would have been), and a Sales Tax (as PST is), and how the former can be more beneficial. Most people weren't aware of the fact that there was a plan to reduce HST by 2% over the coming years, or the tax rebates that were to be given to lower income families to offset the (relatively small) extra costs of the tax. And they were not aware of the HUGE savings to the province by implementing this tax, freeing up possible resources for education and health care (things everyone in the province calls for more funding for). I don't totally blame the people on this. Most people don't understand economics. I think that terrible communication played a massive role.

Anyway just an example.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

LOL - yes, I understand. Just listening to you explain it confused me... Not because you explained it poorly (you didn't), but because I don't have the background information I would need to understand it.

[DanieMarie]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

LOL - yes, I understand. Just listening to you explain it confused me... Not because you explained it poorly (you didn't), but because I don't have the background information I would need to understand it.

Yeah I think if you don't live in Canada even explaining the sales tax system can lose people.

And the whole political fallout from the issue is a massive story.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

Oh, by the way, DanieMarie - I've never heard of the organization " Transperancy International" but I'd like to check them out. I assume that I can find them with a search, but if you have a link handy, can you give it to me? I'll take a look later tonight.

[DanieMarie]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

Sure thing: http://www.transparency.org/

It largely aims to fight corruption, on a global scale

[B. de Corbin]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

Thank you, DanieMarie. I've checked out the web pages, but it's going to take me awhile to read through them and see what's going on. I think fighting corruption is something everybody can get behind, if only we have the personal tools we need to do it.