What is LIBERTY?

[DanieMarie]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

I don't want to get too off topic, but a) it was NOT in a 'German tourists are horrible' kind of way. All it took was them asking for help in German (and there was a German flag on the door indicating that the staff spoke it) and they would help them, and then they would turn to us (I was with a bunch of French girls, and the Greeks LOVE the French for some reason so they got in lots of long conversations with them) and say something like 'Germans are just a bunch of Nazis'. b) I've experienced German tourists being a bit annoying in Europe, but from experience this is largely older people on bus tours. when I worked in a gift shop in Canada they were perfectly polite, albeit often lacking the ability to speak English (once again, only older people on bus tours). Younger people are totally fine, from experience, and often friendly and outgoing. I'm not sure what kind of people you're getting, but in Germany customer service is really poor and so they often have low expectations when they're abroad. They tip badly though...they just wont understand why it's necessary to tip more than 10% in North America...they think it's stupid.
They are hated in Europe as tourists though, so there must be some sort of reason (though often I've even seen it boil down to Nazi comments in other places as well, which is unfair and unfounded...if you're going to hate on someone for being an idiot, just call them an idiot!) Not as much as the Americans (which, contrary to popular belief doesn't come from anti-Americanism and a lot of young American tourists are LOVELY, but people on bus tours are HORRIBLE...TOTALLY HORRIBLE), but still pretty hated.

Anyway, /hijack. My point was though, that you still get a lot of Nazi comments, and the world is still really quick to point fingers at Germany for the horrors of the war, even though the strong majority of people in this country weren't even born during those events. So, that's why the anti-Nazi laws, which limit what is otherwise a pretty good sense of freedom of speech, don't tramp on people's sense of liberty.

[Denarius]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

Voting's a privilege, just like driving. It may be a good thing to do, but it's perfectly legal to not vote. Personally, I think not voting should be illegal, even if it inconveniences me. Especially now that they have voting stations set up at almost every public place (at least here in Nevada) - schools, libraries, malls, large government buildings, etc., and there are even mail-in ballots, it's not as much of a hassle as it used to be.

I'll only support this if there's a way to cheat around doing it. Like a list you can get on that votes automatically based on party preference. That way I can just type in Green Party once and never worry about it again.

Actually that sounds pretty good, I vote for parties not politicians anyway. The people don't matter, only the issues.

They tip badly though...they just wont understand why it's necessary to tip more than 10% in North America...they think it's stupid.

Tipping is only necessary if you had good service and loose change. I never give more than five bucks unless I got some freebies like bread or something, and then no more than like ten bucks.

Tipping the waitstaff is a moot point, robots'll have their jobs in like five years anyway.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

Voting's a privilege, just like driving. It may be a good thing to do, but it's perfectly legal to not vote. Personally, I think not voting should be illegal, even if it inconveniences me. Especially now that they have voting stations set up at almost every public place (at least here in Nevada) - schools, libraries, malls, large government buildings, etc., and there are even mail-in ballots, it's not as much of a hassle as it used to be.

I think maybe it's best to allow those people who have so little interest in their own well being that they can't even bother to vote abstain from voting. I'm not so sure that I want to force those people to have a say in the way I live

[Ophidia]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

More derailment, lol.

I don't want to get too off topic, but a) it was NOT in a 'German tourists are horrible' kind of way. All it took was them asking for help in German (and there was a German flag on the door indicating that the staff spoke it) and they would help them, and then they would turn to us (I was with a bunch of French girls, and the Greeks LOVE the French for some reason so they got in lots of long conversations with them) and say something like 'Germans are just a bunch of Nazis'.

No, for us it's just that most of them seem to act very snotty, high-handed and condescending. I know about cultural differences - I understand that Germans will just say things about people without meaning it to be insulting, which is hard for us bombastic and defensive Americans to understand. I mean, if one of my co-workers told me, "You're really fat, aren't you?" I'd probably verbally peel their face off. But if a German tourist says that to me, I'll usually just pat my belly & respond that I'm a fantastic cook. But when they backhandedly flip their credit cards & passports at me and snicker as I try to keep them from falling behind my computer terminal, well, that's a different matter altogether. A lot of my coworkers talk smack about French & Quebecoise people, usually making comments on cowardice or being turn-coats or that they're rude & nasty, but I've never had an ugly time checking in people from France or Quebec - they're usually nice and very patient.

We usually reserve the N-word for our own supervisors & lead clerks. But we try to keep our commentary to ourselves & not let the tourists hear it.

[DanieMarie]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

Can I be honest with you? It would be really great if, even if they act like a-holes, if you could leave the N-word out of it, even if no one hears it. Even if it's amongst yourself, it's perpetuation is actually deeply damaging....So, call them a-holes, call them morons, call them jerks, but leave the past in the past. Unless they're dressed head to toe like this or something: http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/...7i.jpg....then go ahead...

[thalassa]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

Can I be honest with you? It would be really great if, even if they act like a-holes, if you could leave the N-word out of it, even if no one hears it. Even if it's amongst yourself, it's perpetuation is actually deeply damaging....So, call them a-holes, call them morons, call them jerks, but leave the past in the past. Unless they're dressed head to toe like this or something: http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/...7i.jpg....then go ahead...

I *think* she's saying they call their bosses Nazis. Not the German tourists. Here in the US, Nazi usually isn't used as code for "a-hole German", but instead as slang for something along the lines of "uptight, arrogant, full of him/herself dictator"...usually a supervisor or person with some authority on a power trip--basically, a Nazi (and not the "I had to join Hitler Youth so my dad could keep his job" sort of Nazi, more like the Bitch of Buchenwald sort of Nazi). We also wouldn't refer to it as the N-word, since that means something else as well...I might also add, that in some German communities in the US "Nazi" is the ultimate insult--because of the fact that some Germans (like my MIL's neighbor's brother) went back to Germany to become Nazis...if you call someone a Nazi there, you are also calling them a traitor. Our association with the word is different, which (I would guess) is why we use it differently than the rest of Europe might (all things considered).


(/end off topic)

[Ophidia]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

I *think* she's saying they call their bosses Nazis. Not the German tourists. Here in the US, Nazi usually isn't used as code for "a-hole German", but instead as slang for something along the lines of "uptight, arrogant, full of him/herself dictator"...usually a supervisor or person with some authority on a power trip--basically, a Nazi

^ That's it exactly. Even our German-descended co-workers don't bat an eye about it.

It does sort of come back around to liberty. America's weird. We have tons of regulations about hate crimes, discrimination and harassment, especially in the workplace, but we really only pay lip-service to them. If push comes to shove, it could be considered free speech or freedom of expression. There is a huge double standard to it, though. The average American citizen can be racist or politically incorrect - until they become a public figure, like a comedian, song-writer, or politician. Then they have to behave themselves. Mel Gibson & Michael Richards (Kramer from Seinfeld) both lost a lot of fans when they went on racist tirades in public. There's a double standard to that, too - it's okay for a member of a protected minority group to make fun of their own people, even when using racist stereotypes and slurs.

[DanieMarie]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

LOL sorry I totally misinterpreted that. Yeah we use it that way in Canada too, like Grammar Nazi, etc. Sorry!

---------- Post added at 02:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:47 AM ----------

I think there are often double standards with liberty and if you're a public figure. When you're on display like that for everyone I think things become a bit stricter. But I think becoming a very public figure often means compromising your liberty to at least some extent (you don't really get much privacy when your life is on display!)

[B. de Corbin]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

Perzephone, DannieMarie, I'm going to disagree with you on the double standard thing.

Perzephone says that Mel Gibbson and Kramer lost a lot of fans because they went on racial tirades, and that this indicates a double standard. It doesn't - it's the same standard that many people - such as myself - use in dealing with non celebrities, such as friends and coworkers.

Example: If I had an acquaintance at work who launched into a huge anti-German tirade, referring to them as "a bunch of goose stepping Nazis," I would drop that person as an acquaintance, and avoid conversations with that person in the future. This is why Gibbson and Kramer lost fans - those former fans did not want to be associated with someone who voiced things they could not or would not condone.

DannieMarie tells me that things become stricter when one is a celebrity, and that this indicates a double standard. Things do not become stricter, they actually become looser, and we accept things from celebrities that we would never accept from individuals - just look at sports figures and their sex scandals, if you are too close to your celebrities to see it.

This is why actors and actresses, and Hollywood in general, have been so instrumental in the gay rights movement - people expect creative people to be a bit different, and so creative people have always been the ones who were able to push the edges of society open... a little bit at a time... (this is a double standard, but the opposite of the one you are talking about, DannieMarie)

However, there is a limit to how far people are willing to let the edges be pushed, and in what direction. When a celebrity exceeds that, or pushes in the wrong direction - for instance, by referring to Germans as a bunch of goose stepping Nazis - some people, those of us who find that kind of reference intolerable, like me, for instance, will reject them.

DannieMarie, how would you react to a person who made a racist remark which you personally found offensive (I won't repeat the goose stepping thing again, I think you get the idea)? How did you react to Mel Gobbson when he made racist remarks that some people found personally offensive? If there is a difference between the two, can you explain that difference? Is it because you were stricter with Mel than you would be with some casual acquantance?

The same thing would happen to me in my private life if I did things like that - I would loose friends and the respect of some of the people that I know- the only difference is that nobody would notice that I had lost friends and respect because it wouldn't be reported in the newspapers or on someones blog, and I won't loose thousands of admirers, because I don't HAVE thousands of admirers to begin with.

[Monk]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

Nice coup fourre Corbin.

[DanieMarie]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

I think you misunderstood me. I didn't say that we are stricter with celebrities, but that they give up a lot of their freedom in being in the public eye. We might accept some of the less desirable things they do as 'ok' but those things are still splattered all over the front pages of every tabloid and spread all over the internet in seconds. You can't do what you want and expect to have any kind of anonymity. I'm not just talking about bad stuff....I mean, take a woman going to the beach. MOST women have cellulite, but you don't see everyone criticizing regular women for it while they're wearing swimsuits. Jennifer Love Hewitt goes on holiday with her boyfriend and suddenly her ass is on every tabloid smashing how 'awful' she looks. The woman can't even go to the beach without eliciting criticism! And for something that is perfectly normal and common in women. It's not even about being fat...I wear a size 0 and I still have it! As a celebrity you can't just do regular things like throw on sweat pants and go to the store to buy a bag of doritos. Someone is going to be photographing it and it's going to end up on some 'bad fashion' page. Don't tell me that's not giving up a lot of personal liberties...

I might come under attack in my private life if I cheat on my boyfriend or majorly screw up at work...but I can wear a swimsuit in public, shop in my dirty 'painting' jeans and have a bloated 'fat' day without any sort of criticism or negative speculation.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

I didn't say that we are stricter with celebrities

Uhm... actually, you did.

When you're on display like that for everyone I think things become a bit stricter.!

And it's the use of the word "stricter" that throws me off.

If you condemn celebrities for things you would forgive an acquaintance for, you are being stricter.
If you hold celebrities to the same standards that you hold acquaintances to, you are being consistent.
If you excuse celebrities for things you would not excuse an acquaintance for, you are being more lenient with celebrities.


But you are correct in that, when a person puts his/her life on public display (for whatever reason - celebrity status, political ambition, or whatever), they are much more visible, and they will be judged by more people, and you are more likely to hear about those judgments - because they have put their life on public display.

It's part of the price they have decided to pay for being public figures.

That's at least one good reason to avoid displaying yourself in public....

[Ophidia]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

What I mean by double standard when it comes to regular everyday individuals and public figures is that what a person might get away with saying to a couple of friends a celebrity cannot get away with saying in public. Individual freedom of speech doesn't hold up to public scrutiny, even when it's done with artistic license. Which is why all politically incorrect jokes start by looking over your shoulder.

We have policies in the casino against discrimination and harassment - but we get away with calling our supervisors 'line-Nazi', 'shoe-Nazi' & 'break-Nazi'. We refer to our hotel as a ghetto. Most of us consider sexual harassment as part of the benefits package. As long as it stays behind the desk, out of earshot of the customers, it's overlooked. In some cases, even when directed at guests, it's overlooked. We have one older clerk who feels it necessary to give every international guest a politically incorrect history lesson about their own country. He's sort of deaf, so his discourses are always at the top of his lungs. Working next to him can quickly become an exercise in diplomacy - people have complained, too, but because of our strong Union backing, he's still here, talking about dropping the bombs on Japan to every Asian guest he assists.

I don't know if it's just a Las Vegas attitude or what, but even when I worked for our District Attorney's office, people said some pretty outrageous things to one another. And no one in Admin batted an eye, even though everyone was in clear violation of the zero-tolerance regulations regarding all the ~isms (ageism, sexism, racism, etcism).

On a purely personal level, I have taken many people to task for racist remarks, including individual co-workers and the in-laws - but my ethics get clouded when it comes to trying to pay my bills, so I too have a double standard. The ~isms are bad, except when it comes to my paycheck.

[DanieMarie]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

It might be the price you pay, but I'm not sure -everyone- who is famous intended to be that way...especially a lot of the more 'craft' actors and musical performers. In arts, it's rough, and you take what successes you get, and it may be more rare than not but sometimes you just get catapulted into the public eye.

I met Arcade Fire once, and they were a good example of this. Those were guys from McGill who just played in a band and got lucky doing what they loved, and they got enormous success. Suddenly, they couldn't really be themselves anymore and they were pretty exhausted.

Also, I don't really think a lot of people really know how harsh it can be until they experience it. And it's hard to go back after that.

[Ophidia]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

It might be the price you pay, but I'm not sure -everyone- who is famous intended to be that way...especially a lot of the more 'craft' actors and musical performers. In arts, it's rough, and you take what successes you get, and it may be more rare than not but sometimes you just get catapulted into the public eye.

They're all human, too (except maybe Tom Cruise). We, as the adoring, paying fanbase are the ones who forget that celebrities are just people, and they occasionally have bad days. For us normal folk, having a bad day means putting on a pissy face and grumping our way through it. For a celebrity, having a bad day means they should probably just stay home, because anything they say or do can and will be held against them.