What is LIBERTY?

[B. de Corbin]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

They're all human, too (except maybe Tom Cruise). We, as the adoring, paying fanbase are the ones who forget that celebrities are just people, and they occasionally have bad days. For us normal folk, having a bad day means putting on a pissy face and grumping our way through it. For a celebrity, having a bad day means they should probably just stay home, because anything they say or do can and will be held against them.

Yes, when you make your money off the adoration of the masses, you have to do things to keep that adoration, and not do things which will cause you to loose it. It's part of the job description.

Sure, it sometimes happens that a person will get a certain job, and then discover that he/she does not care for all the duties. In that case, the person can choose to do it, or leave the job, or live with the consequences of one's choices.

But the job doesn't change - the worker does, or leaves, or lives with the consequences.

Or people could choose to do what I do...

Enjoy the art (movie, music, or whatever) and ignore the lives of the people who make it. But that's a decision which belongs to the people who are paying the artist's bills, not the artist. What is is, what is not is not. You are not likely to get everything you want all at once, unless you are very, very clever. And let's face it.... A lot of celebrities aren't all that clever...

The point is - a person can not demand that people look at them and then demand that people not evaluate the things they see. You are judged by your actions, I am judged by my actions, they are judged by their actions.

Is this not fair? Why should they get special privileges? Isn't enough for them to make more in a year than most of us make in a lifetime? What are they, gods?

Shit... Gods should be judged too, and in the same way...

[DanieMarie]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

I don't think they should get special privileges at all. I think they -should- be treated like everyone else, which means not having crazy, unrealistic expectations about their appearance or following their every, mundane move. I still hold that while maybe some things we give leeway for, we hold them to ridiculous and damaging scrutiny. And yeah, you can say that they chose that life, but I don't think you understand just how bloody damaging it can be to be criticized in EVERY tabloid in the western world for something like cellulite when you're a size 2 (for example), and I think a lot of people don't understand unless they go through it.

I spent a part of my life on display. I wasn't famous, but I was on display. I chose it, but it had consequences to my self esteem I couldn't foresee. It's taken me this long to start to get over it, and even now I'm still damaged. Every time someone called me 'fat' or a 'slut' or anything negative, it took a little bit out of me. And I wasn't even famous (not very anyway...I did get recognized in the street a few times). I wasn't 'not that clever' but I was young when I got involved in this stuff and I didn't really think it through. I gave it up fast enough, but I can imagine if I became known for my music (I used to be a singer) and not my looks, it wouldn't have been all that easy to just 'drop', as it was my passion.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

Well, you started something and then discovered that, for yourself, the costs were too high, and you switched to something else. Congratulations on making a rational choice. I've done this a few times myself.

I'm not sure I'm getting the problem, though... People make choices, and are affected by the consequences of those choices. This is how the world is.

How would you prefer it to be? Certain "special" people be granted immunity to the same conditions everybody else has tp live with?

If I publicly, like on this forum, go on a racist tirade, what would happen? If a "celebrity" does the same thing in public, what would you like to see happen - people disregard it, pretend it never happened?

Liberty does not make you or me immune from the consequences of our choices. Do you intend to create an elite group to whom this does not apply?

I do hereby declare that all celebrities are immune from the consequences of their personal choices... I don't think this is going to work...

[DanieMarie]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

I think we're getting at two different things here. For the last time, I am NOT trying to say that celebrities are immune from the consequences of their choices. I'm saying that being in the public eye means you forfeit liberties that everyone else gets to have. I'm not talking about getting to act crazy and sleep around. I'm talking about liberties such as having a 'tired' day, wearing old, stained jeans to Wal-Mart and having fights with your significant other without massive public speculation...basically the liberty to be not 100% perfect all the time. This may be a consequence of their career decisions but it doesn't mean that they don't give up these liberties, or that it's not difficult.

I think you misunderstand how difficult it can be to give up your career for that as well. Imagine you're a musician, and you spent your life practicing and practicing and struggling (it's really not easy to make a living off music...most people hire DJs for their events and gigs are hard to come by). Then, you get a break, and your success builds. Suddenly, you're at a cross roads. Your life isn't yours anymore, but you're doing what you love. Once again, I think this is a forfeit of liberty. Most people don't have to choose between following their passion and the success of their career and having a private life.

[Ophidia]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

I do hereby declare that all celebrities are immune from the consequences of their personal choices... I don't think this is going to work...

I think it only works if they are full of tiger blood... or possibly WINNING somehow.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

Oh. If all you are saying is that sometimes a person has to give up one thing to get another, then I agree.

[DanieMarie]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

Yep that's all I'm saying...fame is a trade-off and to get it you have to give up your liberty.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

Sorry for dragging the conversation out then. I thought that you were putting some kind of moral value into it - like, it's bad that this happens. I get confused when I think that somebody is deriving some sort of moral from simple statements of fact.

My appologies.

[DanieMarie]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

I do think it's bad that it happens, but that's another topic all together and I understand how it's debatable. I just wanted to point out that there's a major trade off of liberty when it comes to fame.

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

Whatever you call it, freedom, liberty, etc., it all requires a sense of RESPONSIBILITY and a shared common good. Sadly that is what the world is sorely lacking today. The concept of liberty and of being a "free people" has been bastardized into a "I'll do whatever I want and the hell with everyone else" mentality. JMHO

[DanieMarie]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

Whatever you call it, freedom, liberty, etc., it all requires a sense of RESPONSIBILITY and a shared common good. Sadly that is what the world is sorely lacking today. The concept of liberty and of being a "free people" has been bastardized into a "I'll do whatever I want and the hell with everyone else" mentality. JMHO

Agreed. Totally agreed.

[Ophidia]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

Whatever you call it, freedom, liberty, etc., it all requires a sense of RESPONSIBILITY and a shared common good. Sadly that is what the world is sorely lacking today. The concept of liberty and of being a "free people" has been bastardized into a "I'll do whatever I want and the hell with everyone else" mentality. JMHO

Yup.

It's kind of why I've never been much of one for anarchy. In the complete absence of government, no one is going to voluntarily fix anything (like infrastructures - bridges, roads, sewers, etc.), and those of us who would volunteer probably don't know how. Even with a somewhat functioning government, half the time they won't fix stuff either - so a bunch of lawless anarchists don't give me much hope.

[DanieMarie]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

anarchy doesn't even make sense. People need security and will band together to achieve it. Bands will form alliances and team up and eventually make larger bands. Fast forward and you have city-states, then eventually countries. Through all these processes, you're going to have leaders because people need direction. It could take a couple hundred to a couple thousand years but eventually we'll be back where we are now.

[Denarius]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

It's kind of why I've never been much of one for anarchy. In the complete absence of government, no one is going to voluntarily fix anything (like infrastructures - bridges, roads, sewers, etc.), and those of us who would volunteer probably don't know how. Even with a somewhat functioning government, half the time they won't fix stuff either - so a bunch of lawless anarchists don't give me much hope.

Yes, without government, experts in every feild are going to disappear and could never be replaced. And everyone knows that things like roads, schools, hospitals, and bridges serve no purpose and are just there to look pretty.

Why, unless forced by politicians, no one would ever even lift a finger!

Things like public funds, charity, pro bono work, division of labor, job training, and whatnot couldn't possibly exist without the monopolization of force and a representative body of people who both make and enforce laws!

DM: What you are describing is civilized society, not government. There's some anarchists who define it as every man for himself, but most don't. Or at least the one's I know don't.

Just because it's lawless does not mean that anything goes, people govern themselves well enough to ensure that.

[Ophidia]

Re: What is LIBERTY?

Just because it's lawless does not mean that anything goes, people govern themselves well enough to ensure that.

Must be nice to have that much faith in one's fellow humans. I just think about the things happening in Mexico & Somalia.