Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions

[Zazaru]

This thread is for questions about Japanese pronunciation, grammar, etymology, etc. I've intended this to be supplementary to kijani's The Japanese Language Learning Thread (v2.0), so please ask any major questions about learning Japanese there. This is more for unusual, uncommon, or particularly difficult questions that would just bog that thread down or send it on an unrecoverable tangent.

Generally speaking, I'm going to be using IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet) to transcribe pronunciation in this thread since it's the easiest way to convey how these words/sounds should be said. If you're not familiar with IPA you can find out about how to read it on Wikipedia here: IPA

You can also check Wikipedia's specific articles for consonants and vowels, which are handy because they have audio clips to help you get a better idea of the sounds.

Consonants
Vowels

I realize that Wikipedia is a spurious source under most circumstances, but the pages I've linked are reliable (or reliable enough) for my intended purpose.

Also, just to make it clear, when I type a symbol in brackets -- [n] -- that is its phonetic value (as close as I can approximate it to how it's actually said. If I type a symbol in slashes -- /n/ -- that is its phonemic value (the sound a native speaker associates it with, which may or may not be the same as how it's actually said). If I type a symbol in squiggly brackets -- {n} -- that's the orthographic transcription of the sound (i.e. how you spell it when writing it normally).

So, if you have a question about Japanese words or language and you're having trouble getting an answer (or don't understand the answer you're getting), then I'll gladly do my best to answer it for you here.

どうぞ、よろしく。

---------- Post added at 07:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:57 PM ----------

I've wondered for a while about sound changes when kanji are used in compounds. Sometimes the sound will become voiced in the second kanji, like in our 'kotoba' for example. Yet it seems that sometimes this change does not occur, even when the same kanji is used but in a different compound. There are even words that have two possible readings like 'nihon and 'nippon'.

So, assuming my observation is correct, are there any patterns governing whether or not this phonetic change occurs? Or does one simply have to learn each word separately, with their kanji and yomi?.

This question comes from my intro thread here.

Japanese pronunciation is at the same time very easy and harder than you think. Like with most languages, though, it's very intuitive once you've spoken it as your primary language for long enough. Most of the changes in pronunciation that you're talking about are to make it easier to say certain words. You frequently will get situations where the unvoiced consonant in the second part of a compound word is vocalized (such as the /s/ in saru turning into a /z/ in my screen name) simply because it's easier to say it that way.

This is a standard feature of most languages' phonetic structure. It's easier to say voiced consonants (especially stops and fricatives) that come between two voiced sounds (most prominently vowels) than it is to say their voiceless counterpart. Since you're already engaging your vocal cords when saying the sounds on either side of the consonant in question, the voicing naturally bleeds over into it. This is why we say [kʰ aɹz] instead of [kʰ aɹs] (unless you consciously soften that final {s}).

This shows up in a lot of Japanese compound words. For example, there's a whole category of words where you just repeat a term to basically mean "a whole helluva lot of that". {様々} /samazama/ is based on a doubling of the word that means "appearance, likeness, in the manner of" and so basically is like saying "a whole helluva lot of likenesses" and comes across with a meaning of "various, all sorts, every kind of [something]". Another example is {方々} /katagata/, which is a douling of a word which can mean "way, method" or "person" in formal circumstances. This is a very formal way of saying "people" (usually of people in general, or a large group).

If you notice, both of those words end up vocalizing the initial sound of the repeated word. /s/ becomes /z/ and /k/ becomes /g/.

For your specific question, though, we have to look at another aspect of Japanese compound words. The characters that make up {日本} are separately pronounced /nichi/ and /hon/. In compound words, {日} is often pronounced as either /ni/ or {にっ} [ ni ̚ ]. If you're familiar with basic Japanese writing, you'll recognize that {っ} as a mark that the following sound will be doubled. The different pronunciations of {日本} are a result of these two different ways of inserting {日} into a compound. If you read it as /ni/ then the word becomes /nihon/. Since you can't really double an /h/, if you read it as [ ni ̚ ], then the /h/ is pronounced as a /p/ and the word becomes /nipːon/.

If that didn't quite make sense, then I'd recommend that you take a look at a Japanese syllabary/pronunciation chart to see how the sounds are related. (In Japanese, /h/ sounds are phonemically linked to /p/ and /b/.)

I hope that answered your question. Let me know if that wasn't clear, or if you have some questions about my explanation.

[Jembru]

Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions

That does clear it up for me, but a teacher always checks their students' understanding before moving on, so if you don't mind, I'll try to put it into my own words so you can check I have it..

So mainly it is just for the ease of pronunciation. I saw the same concept while studying German; that letters would sometimes be added to words (in particular, compound nouns where two or more nouns are spliced together), in order to make pronunciation easier. So I can grasp this concept no problem. This is possibly already an intuitive thing for me, if only because I am constantly speaking Japanese to my boyfriend so am used to pronouncing words, if nothing else (not saying it's correct, but the difficulties in pronouncing some combinations would be present whether my accent was good or not).

On a related side note, JP and I tend to speak Japanese more than English, but this is exactly why I am worried and want to study with a living teacher rather than a book, as neither of us are fluent and so just copy one another's grammar mistakes, creating a language that is based on, but not the same as, Japanese. My goal is to gradually iron out these errors. JP never studied the language and learnt completely by imitation, (although looked up words for clarity). His grammar is entirely intuitive so I'm hoping when my own grammar improves, he'll copy automatically.

Anyway... back to my reiteration. So one would never pronounce 'kotoba' as 'kotoha' for example, because this is damned awkward to say? Which also explains why when ha is used as a particle, it sounds more like 'wa' (same for 'wo'... damn, I wish I could type Japanese on this thing... wait, I have an idea... を Thank you google!). I assume the reason the particle は, is never changed to ば is to avoid confusion, so only one, rather than two, hiragana is ever used.

It's funny you mentioned the doubled kanji words, hitobito, tokidoki and all those, because I was originally going to in my initial question but realised it was getting too long. There is a related question though. I think I remember this right... there was a kanji that was sometimes used to indicate that the kanji before was repeated. What is this kanji and does it also stand alone with it's own meaning and reading? Or does it exist only for this purpose? Have I made it up altogether? It has been about 6 years since I last studied kanji so I have forgotten a lot and seem to have a few false memories.

Thank you for starting this thread. I've a feeling I might dominate it somewhat though. Sorry if I do. I do appreciate the free tuition. It's 40 quid a lesson around here you know! JP and I did consider booking some together, and we may book a few before we go to Japan, or my friends come here, whichever is soonest. The teacher will come to our home, which is nice, but it would be to iron out our spoken mistakes that you won't be exposed to. Far better to improve our Japanese BEFORE the private lessons. So you are being a huge help and although our personalities seem to clash, I honestly appreciate your effort!

[Zazaru]

Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions

That does clear it up for me, but a teacher always checks their students' understanding before moving on, so if you don't mind, I'll try to put it into my own words so you can check I have it..

So mainly it is just for the ease of pronunciation. I saw the same concept while studying German; that letters would sometimes be added to words (in particular, compound nouns where two or more nouns are spliced together), in order to make pronunciation easier. So I can grasp this concept no problem. This is possibly already an intuitive thing for me, if only because I am constantly speaking Japanese to my boyfriend so am used to pronouncing words, if nothing else (not saying it's correct, but the difficulties in pronouncing some combinations would be present whether my accent was good or not).

On a related side note, JP and I tend to speak Japanese more than English, but this is exactly why I am worried and want to study with a living teacher rather than a book, as neither of us are fluent and so just copy one another's grammar mistakes, creating a language that is based on, but not the same as, Japanese. My goal is to gradually iron out these errors. JP never studied the language and learnt completely by imitation, (although looked up words for clarity). His grammar is entirely intuitive so I'm hoping when my own grammar improves, he'll copy automatically.

Anyway... back to my reiteration. So one would never pronounce 'kotoba' as 'kotoha' for example, because this is damned awkward to say? Which also explains why when ha is used as a particle, it sounds more like 'wa' (same for 'wo'... damn, I wish I could type Japanese on this thing... wait, I have an idea... を Thank you google!). I assume the reason the particle は, is never changed to ば is to avoid confusion, so only one, rather than two, hiragana is ever used.

It's funny you mentioned the doubled kanji words, hitobito, tokidoki and all those, because I was originally going to in my initial question but realised it was getting too long. There is a related question though. I think I remember this right... there was a kanji that was sometimes used to indicate that the kanji before was repeated. What is this kanji and does it also stand alone with it's own meaning and reading? Or does it exist only for this purpose? Have I made it up altogether? It has been about 6 years since I last studied kanji so I have forgotten a lot and seem to have a few false memories.

Thank you for starting this thread. I've a feeling I might dominate it somewhat though. Sorry if I do. I do appreciate the free tuition. It's 40 quid a lesson around here you know! JP and I did consider booking some together, and we may book a few before we go to Japan, or my friends come here, whichever is soonest. The teacher will come to our home, which is nice, but it would be to iron out our spoken mistakes that you won't be exposed to. Far better to improve our Japanese BEFORE the private lessons. So you are being a huge help and although our personalities seem to clash, I honestly appreciate your effort!

I have no trouble with passing along my knowledge. It makes it seem like it was actually worth the time and effort to acquire.

As for /kotoha/, you might see someone intentionally pronouncing it that way, but it would be purely as a joke, like putting the emphasis on the wrong syllable in English.

As for the particles {は}, {を}, etc., they're that way because of the progression and development of Japanese over many long centuries. {は} actually started as {ば} /ba/, and was often used in a sense similar to the modern suffix {-ば} meaning "if, under the circumstances of" or (less frequently) "when". Eventually, due to pronunciation shifts, the vocalization was dropped and it was pronounced as [fʰ a], similar to {ふ} [fʰ u] is pronounced today. Over time, the topic marker particle came to be pronounced as /wa/, instead, and that's how we have it today. Because of that connection, it's still written {は}, despite its pronunciation.

{を} used to actually be pronounced /wo/ rather than just /o/, but over time as its pronunciation shifted it came to be used exclusive for the direct object marker particle. I'm sure that they stuck with {を} in order to avoid confusion with the honorific suffix　{お-}, as the kanji {御} fell out of use for anything but formal writing.

There actually used to be characters filling out the entire syllabary chart, including /yi/, /ye/, /wi/, /wu/, and /we/, that were actually used in words from time to time ({を}, as well), but due to their infrequent usage and pronunciation that shifted to identically mirror the standard /i/, /u/, and /e/, and their interchangeability with those characters, they were dropped as part of a simplification of written Japanese as part of linguistic reform efforts after WWII. It was around that time that the official list of {常用漢字} [ʤjoː joː kaŋʤi] was formalized, as well, limiting the characters that could be used in official documentation to the list of 1,945 characters that are in use today (plus another couple of hundred officially sanctioned {名用感じ} [meijoː kaŋʤi] for use in proper nouns).

Yes, there is a "ditto" character in Japanese, used for a repeated kanji. You can see it in my original post, {々}. It is used exclusively for that purpose, and has no meaning or pronunciation on its own. There's also a character that has a similar meaning when copying a hiragana or katakana character, but it's used so infrequently that my word processor won't generate the character and I can't find it using a Google search right now. If I can get my hands on it, I'll post it later for you to see.

Any other questions?

[Jembru]

Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions

Thanks for the reply! I either missed that kanji the first time around, or I read your post on my phone (some symbols don't show up on there and just appear as little empty squares). I'll try to ensure I have read carefully before posting my next question from now on.

For now, I don't think I have any more questions on kanji. I'm happy being able to read hiragana and katakana, with a limited knowledge of kanji for the time being. Maybe when I max out my verbal skills, my thirst to learn more will lead me back to kanji, but that's a few years off yet, so I'm going to focus on using Japanese for verbal communication.

There are a lot of things I say in Japanese that I think I have completely invented, and I am trying to keep a mental note, but I keep forgetting. BUT, your reply did remind me one thing I've been dying to understand...

You mentioned the conditional -(r)eba verb suffix in your reply (you mentioned '-ba' actually, but lets not confuse me just yet.. just humour me).
Well, I tend to favour the suffix '-tara' to express the conditional. Maybe because it is easier, as it's just an extension of the plain past of the verb. What I want to know is, are these two really interchangeable, or am I probably not quite saying what I think I am when I use it? I have looked up examples of both and both seem to be used in the same way -in the same way English would use 'if' or in the case of a habitual action, 'when'. So for example, would both of these be correct.. 'Sono sakana o tabetara onaka ga itaku naru' or 'Sono sakana o tabereba onaka ga itaku naru', or is one incorrect? If both are okay, do they have different meanings or nuances?

The only time I use (r)eba is in expressions like -nakereba naranai*/ikenai, that I assume are not compatable with the '-tara' suffix. Actually, I only assume this because I've never noticed it and none of the books I've studied from have included this, but I am not the worlds most observant individual.

To complicate things even more, JP doesn't like conjugating verbs very much, so prefers to use 'moshi', which opens up a whole new chapter to this already long question. Maybe we come back to moshi (and nara) later?

*Oh this is one of the things I suspect I may have invented. In casual speech, can this be shortened to 'nak'ya nai'? I've looked it up and don't see this in any books I have, but I could swear I have heard this and must have either been told, or read it, to have been able to link it to the non-contracted form. Even though I don't know if this is even real, I use it a lot. A fine example of what I keep saying is my biggest concern.

I really hope this isn't too much of a chore for you, and that you are enjoying answering this kind of thing.. because there's loads more to cover yet. The grammar I am unsure of, far outweighs that which I am confident with!

[Zazaru]

Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions

Thanks for the reply! I either missed that kanji the first time around, or I read your post on my phone (some symbols don't show up on there and just appear as little empty squares). I'll try to ensure I have read carefully before posting my next question from now on.

For now, I don't think I have any more questions on kanji. I'm happy being able to read hiragana and katakana, with a limited knowledge of kanji for the time being. Maybe when I max out my verbal skills, my thirst to learn more will lead me back to kanji, but that's a few years off yet, so I'm going to focus on using Japanese for verbal communication.

There are a lot of things I say in Japanese that I think I have completely invented, and I am trying to keep a mental note, but I keep forgetting. BUT, your reply did remind me one thing I've been dying to understand...

You mentioned the conditional -(r)eba verb suffix in your reply (you mentioned '-ba' actually, but lets not confuse me just yet.. just humour me).
Well, I tend to favour the suffix '-tara' to express the conditional. Maybe because it is easier, as it's just an extension of the plain past of the verb. What I want to know is, are these two really interchangeable, or am I probably not quite saying what I think I am when I use it? I have looked up examples of both and both seem to be used in the same way -in the same way English would use 'if' or in the case of a habitual action, 'when'. So for example, would both of these be correct.. 'Sono sakana o tabetara onaka ga itaku naru' or 'Sono sakana o tabereba onaka ga itaku naru', or is one incorrect? If both are okay, do they have different meanings or nuances?

The only time I use (r)eba is in expressions like -nakereba naranai*/ikenai, that I assume are not compatable with the '-tara' suffix. Actually, I only assume this because I've never noticed it and none of the books I've studied from have included this, but I am not the worlds most observant individual.

To complicate things even more, JP doesn't like conjugating verbs very much, so prefers to use 'moshi', which opens up a whole new chapter to this already long question. Maybe we come back to moshi (and nara) later?

*Oh this is one of the things I suspect I may have invented. In casual speech, can this be shortened to 'nak'ya nai'? I've looked it up and don't see this in any books I have, but I could swear I have heard this and must have either been told, or read it, to have been able to link it to the non-contracted form. Even though I don't know if this is even real, I use it a lot. A fine example of what I keep saying is my biggest concern.

I really hope this isn't too much of a chore for you, and that you are enjoying answering this kind of thing.. because there's loads more to cover yet. The grammar I am unsure of, far outweighs that which I am confident with!

The difference between {-たら} and {-ば} is, in most cases, negligible but they do mean different things. {-たら} is based on the completion tense {-た}, and {-ば} is a conditional modifier. Basically, it's the difference between "if/when something is done (it has been done or will be done), then something will happen" and "if something were to happen (it may or may not, and it could very well be purely hypothetical)". There isn't even necessary to have a spoken or assumed "then" clause with {-ば}, although there can be.

The difference between your example sentences then is (roughly), "Whenever I eat that fish, my stomach hurts" (I've done it before, and so I know) as opposed to "If I were to eat that fish, my stomach would hurt" (I may have had this happen, but I may also be basing this on stuff my doctor or other people have told me based on other things I've eaten). As in English, they mean basically the same thing, but the connotation is different.

For {なければならない｝, no, you cannot replace it with {なくたらならない}. The phrase means "it would be impossible to not do that" or "that cannot not be" (i.e. "must"). As such, {-たら}, which indicates completion and the resulting consequences, is inappropriate to use for this particular phrase. A variation on it that's acceptable, though, is {なくてはならない}, meaning "(as for) not having/being X, that cannot be". That {なくては} is often shortened in colloquial speech to {なきゃ｝. I've never heard someone say {なきゃない｝, but it's possible that it's a slang that's developed since I've been keeping track. What I did hear, a lot, was {なきゃならない}, and I use it myself, too.

{もし｝ is a different bag, but we can discuss it when you want. Just let me know what you want to know about it or anything else, and I'll be happy to start talking too much on the subject.

[Jembru]

Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions

Thanks for yet another perfect answer! So basically, as with English, I can just use whatever rolls off my tongue in most cases? I assume the finer differences would become more instinctive should I ever find myself in a postition where I can use Japanese as my primary language (unlikely, but who knows).

I could ask my friends about nakyanai if you wish, but as soon as I read your explanation of nakute wa and nakyanaranai, I was quite sure this is what I had heard and I have just been saying it wrong! So I doubt my friends will disagree with you that nakyanai doesn't exist.

Okay, no doubt my next question won't be too far behind!

[Jembru]

Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions

Hey, sorry it's been a while. I've been chatting a lot with one of my Japanese friends lately so was throwing my questions her way. Not that I always really understand the answer, so I'll possibly ask the same things here to see if a native English speaker can make it clearer. She still says I sound too polite, but I'm gradually getting the hang of casual Japanese. Anyway, my next question isn't quite a grammar thing. I want to know what the Japanese for 'bed pan' is. Is there some kind of pun/play on words involving bed pans? Needless to say, I can't find this in a dictionary and don't really want to ask my friends if I can help it. Thanks in advance.

Ah wait... While I am here I may as well ask.. am I right to use '-te miru' when I want to imply that I'll attempt to do something (like, try to reach the sachet of soy sauce that fell down the side of the oven), or is it actually only for when one is trying something for the experience? I use it in both cases, but I noticed books tend to give examples of 'why don't you try yoga' or 'I'd like to try sashimi' or whatever. I know there is '-(y)ou to suru', but (I think), this is always negative.. so I tried to get the sachet of soy sauce but couldn't reach. Hope you understand what I am asking but if not I'll give some examples in Japanese so you can see what I am trying to say and if it sounds wrong.

---------- Post added at 08:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:34 PM ----------

Oh btw... You'll be pleased to know that I did get the sauce! Gonna make some lovely vegetable soup now!!

[Jembru]

Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions

Scratch that weird question. Curiousity/impatience got the better of me so I plucked up the courage to ask my friend. She knew right away what I meant and explained it to me. It wasn't a bed pan after all ^^

[Jembru]

Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions

Sorry to keep posting, I swear I won't again until I get a reply, but I dunno if maybe my question was a bit confusing. It was written on my phone while I had JP over, and reading back over it, it does seem a bit rushed.

Basically, all I am confused about is how to express the idea of 'try to'. It's amazing how often the need for this crops up. The soy sauce example was maybe a bad one though. We tend to use the '-te miru' construction I mentioned in the original question, but sometimes this sounds plain wrong. Having thought a little more, I'm assuming that if we could express it in English with the word 'see', 'I'll see if I can reach the soy sauce', then '-te miru' is probably going to work.

The problem with that particular sentence was probably my wording. I often circumarticulate due to limited vocabulary and this sentence came out as..

'Shouyuu o torou to shite te o nobashite miru.'

This just sounds clumsy or maybe plain wrong, and there is surely an easier way to express the same idea, but I really can't think of anything.

Anyway, when I really draw a blank, is when I want to say something like.. 'I'm trying to remember his name.' or, 'I'm trying not to think about it.'

In these cases, '-te miru' surely isn't right? I can't 'do and see' when I am talking about something abstract like that, right?

The only other way I know of to express 'try' in Japanese is, as I've mentioned, '-(y)ou to suru' and can you believe, only one of my books even mentions this construction? (Well, Japanese for Busy People III mentions it in the form '-(y)ou to shita toki', as in 'I was about to' which isn't the use I'm looking for). It seems that this construction implies a failed attempt at something, so probably still doesn't apply to my needs.

I hope my question is a little clearer now. I really have tried (lol) to find the answer for myself but it seems like there is a huge blank in my knowledge, and the resources I've taught myself from, around this area.

Also, I don't mind if anyone else wants to answer btw. I know there are a few Japanese language enthusiasts here so please, by all means support Zazaru and pipe in! Besides, sometimes hearing a few different explanations is useful. I generally need a lot of repetition to learn anything.

[Jembru]

Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions

Well, it looks like it's just me now, so I'll answer my own question for anyone reading this wondering 'yeah, how DO you express that in Japanese?'.

I asked my Japanese friend yesterday. The reason I was struggling to think of a way to express 'trying to' in the sense of 'trying to remember' etc, is because Japanese doesn't express this idea the way we do. So to take the example of 'I'm trying to remember his name'. In Japanese they would say, 'namae ga omoidasenai' [名前が思い出せない。] (or in 'proper' textbook Japanese; 'Kare no namae ga omoidasemasen' [彼の名前が思い出せません。]). So the emphasis is on not currently being able to do the action, 'I can't remember his name', rather than the attempt at achieving the desired outcome.

My friend also agreed that had I used -te miru [〜て見る], I'd have sounded as though I've never attempted to think before, so I'm giving it a go. She wished me luck with that ^^

If anyone is wondering why I've suddenly started writing in Japanese, it's because I've decided (actually, I've been persuaded) to sit the JLPT, so I have a sudden interest in reading. As a result of this, I'm going to take every chance going to practise using kanji. Sorry if I typed anything wrong in the examples. I recently discovered that I struggle even to type in romaji without oodles of mistakes, so I'm probably worse when typing in script.

Also, I'm currently putting together a table of common Japanese contractions that you're likely to hear in everyday spoken Japanese. Things like -kke, -chatta, etc. to show how they relate to the structures taught in books. Of course, I'll get it checked by native speakers for accuracy before I go posting it about online. I might also add features that characterise feminine and masculine speech. I've looked around and can't find anything like this online or in the books I own. So if anyone would be interested in this table, let me know.


Added 20 May 2012:

I'm editting my last post, because I don't want to keep bumping, but I really want to keep this going. Hopefully, my fellow students of Japanese will return and help me out, so I'd like to keep asking my questions anyway. I keep a list of things I need to find out and often, I stumble on the answer anyway, but sometimes I have to ask my Japanese friends. The thing is, my former teacher is now pregnant so I don't see her that often, and my other friends aren't so aware of Japanese grammar, so often can't explain things to me (or know the answer, but can't express it in English).

So I'll just keep editting this post with questions and if anyone does read this and can answer any of them, I'd be extremely grateful. Of course, if I find the answer myself, I'll just delete the question. Lets go...

1) This is a weird one. I've no idea why, but my Japanese friend was unable to answer this: when you shake up a can or bottle and then when you open it, it explodes, how to you describe that in Japanese? It is in Japanese for busy people II, so I flipped to that page, and actually, it is just a picture of a guy opening a beer with the caption "..."

2) In what situation would one use 'mirareru' (on phone so can't write the Jap, will edit when I get a chance). Again, Miyo couldn't think of an example. I kept offering suggestions, like if someone were short sighted for example, but in every case, she said 'mieru' would still be better. I concluded that I just won't ever use mirareru, but she said she would sometimes use it, she just cann't think of an example of when. Of course, I'm similarly confused between kikeru and kikoeru but I assume answering one, will explain the other.

3) A simple one now: why do so many words have alternative kanji? Am I expected to learn all the alternatives, or would texts use furigana for clarity if a word has alternate forms?

Thanks in advance. I'm open to 'educated guesses' if you're not 100% sure. If even natives aren't sure, then I hardly expect perfect answers from fellow students of the language! Any little helps and is welcome.

[Jembru]

Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions

Can't edit the old posts anymore, so this could get a lil' untidy until some one floats onto pagan forum and rescues me with their superior Japanese wisdom. I have a question for those who have studied the written language.

Why is the word 'baka', written with the kanji for horse and deer? Is there some interesting back story or mythology going on here? I never saw this in kanji until moments ago (is it usually written in kana?), but now I have, I'm fascinated. If I know the kanji, I can usually at least guess at the reasoning behind the way words are constructed, but this one has me baffled.

[Hoho]

Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions

Can't edit the old posts anymore, so this could get a lil' untidy until some one floats onto pagan forum and rescues me with their superior Japanese wisdom. I have a question for those who have studied the written language.

Why is the word 'baka', written with the kanji for horse and deer? Is there some interesting back story or mythology going on here? I never saw this in kanji until moments ago (is it usually written in kana?), but now I have, I'm fascinated. If I know the kanji, I can usually at least guess at the reasoning behind the way words are constructed, but this one has me baffled.

It's characters simply borrowed for their pronunciation, there is no logic to it. That's why in modern times, you see it written more and more in hiragana.

- - - Updated - - -

Manyougana, that's what I was trying to think of, it stems from that. It's the ancient system where Chinese characters would be used for japanese pronunciation (as well as for meaning sometimes, making reading manyougana a pain.

[Jembru]

Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions

Oh thanks for that! Although I must say I was hoping for some cool story about the intellectually challenged offspring of a mr deer and mrs horse. I guess with the whopping 310 kanji I know, I've only met those that mean what the kanji is meant to represent. I can't think of any word I've met so far (besides baka), that is using kanji only for their sounds.

So, do you know if this is quite common in modern Japanese? Is it something I'll see a lot if I decide to take the script more seriously? Or is the trend mostly to stick to kana when only the phonetics matter?

Oh, and, please forgive my questioning (you may have noticed I bored the OP away forever), but, do you also happen to know why some words can be written with different kanji? I notice this frequently when I look things up on denshi jisho, and it has me baffled.

[Hoho]

Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions

Oh thanks for that! Although I must say I was hoping for some cool story about the intellectually challenged offspring of a mr deer and mrs horse. I guess with the whopping 310 kanji I know, I've only met those that mean what the kanji is meant to represent. I can't think of any word I've met so far (besides baka), that is using kanji only for their sounds.

So, do you know if this is quite common in modern Japanese? Is it something I'll see a lot if I decide to take the script more seriously? Or is the trend mostly to stick to kana when only the phonetics matter?

Oh, and, please forgive my questioning (you may have noticed I bored the OP away forever), but, do you also happen to know why some words can be written with different kanji? I notice this frequently when I look things up on denshi jisho, and it has me baffled.

It's not too common, baka is a common word so you sometimes might see it written in those kanji, but a recognition of it is all thats important; you don't need to know how to write it. It has become more trendy to write weird things like that in hiragana. One thing about linguistics, is languages tend to always become (or try to become) more simplified. Kanji wasn't made for japanese at all, and it functions mediocre at best. Korean has almost abolished kanji from use (near 100% in daily use).

I do know why some words can be written with different kanji, but theres different circumstances, can you give me an example?

Thanks!

[Jembru]

Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions

Indeed I can, but how about we wait until Friday when I have internet so can include the Kanji in my examples. It will be much easier that way. I know you'd understand if I gave a description of the radicals they contain, but it would be much nicer just to type them.