Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #16
    Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions

    Originally posted by Jembru View Post
    Indeed I can, but how about we wait until Friday when I have internet so can include the Kanji in my examples. It will be much easier that way. I know you'd understand if I gave a description of the radicals they contain, but it would be much nicer just to type them.
    True, but you could give descriptions lol, whatevers easier for you!

    Comment


      #17
      Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions

      Okay, I'll do ONE for now, only because I genuinely believe you think it would be fun, and because I admire your enthusiasm and am very grateful to have someone so willing to help this struggling learner. I've never tried this before so please forgive me if I get the radicals wrong..

      Lets use 'kiku' to hear, listen or ask. Usually, the Japanese wright this with a gate around a ear. I'm sure this is familiar enough to you to require no more detail. The dictionaries however, also list a second kanji, this has 'ear' on the left and the right is.. oh man, how do I describe this? The bottom right is 'heart' the top right.. erm, 'ten' standing on a sideways 'eye' maybe? like the eye looking at the shell in 'buy'.

      Told you I'm not very good at kanji! ^^
      Last edited by Jembru; 03 Oct 2012, 09:50.
      夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

      Comment


        #18
        Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions

        Originally posted by Jembru View Post
        Okay, I'll do ONE for now, only because I genuinely believe you think it would be fun, and because I admire your enthusiasm and am very grateful to have someone so willing to help this struggling learner. I've never tried this before so please forgive me if I get the radicals wrong..

        Lets use 'kiku' to hear, listen or ask. Usually, the Japanese right this with a gate around a ear. I'm sure this is familiar enough to you to require no more detail. The dictionaries however, also list a second kanji, this has 'ear' on the left and the right is.. oh man, how do I describe this? The bottom right is 'heart' the top right.. erm, 'ten' standing on a sideways 'eye' maybe? like the eye looking at the shell in 'buy'.

        Told you I'm not very good at kanji! ^^
        Ya, I know what you're talking about, 聞 and 聽. There's a specific nuance in the usage between them, tbh most japanese don't even know many of the nuances. (I don't know the nuance offhand, I'd have to research it.) In chinese though, 聽 is a more modern character and 聞 is a more classical word. Both mean to hear, but 聽 is used as the verb to hear modernly (though this doesn't really pertain to you! so I'll leave it at that.) Japanese likes to use the classical kanji in words since that's when they were implemented.

        This is another example of when modern Japanese people sometimes just use hiragana instead of kanji, when there's a nuance. The same kiku also has another meaning meaning "to ask", so it's not uncommon for a lot of japanese to just use hiragana, the nuances are becoming outdated in day-to-day life. I'll look up the specific nuance for you.

        - - - Updated - - -

        Hokay, well 聞く is the general kanji for the verb, 聴く is used in things like listening to music, listening to the circumstances, and the formal kanji for to ask (never knew this one). But like I said, you can use 聞く pretty much all of the time and it's ok, or else just use きく.

        Comment


          #19
          Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions

          Thanks! Glad you knew what I meant! My coursebook always uses the 'ear to the gate' version, even when the meaning is 'ask'. Sometime the example sentences are identical too.

          Oh I wonder if you could help me with something else. You know when kanji are written in rounded calligraphy, like on vases and lanterns? Is there a standard way of writing in this style, and do you know of any books or sites that teach this? I can recognise 'rice field' in this style, and 'sun', then I run out.. it would just be nice to be able to recognise these unique moon runes! ^^
          夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

          Comment


            #20
            Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions

            Originally posted by Jembru View Post
            Thanks! Glad you knew what I meant! My coursebook always uses the 'ear to the gate' version, even when the meaning is 'ask'. Sometime the example sentences are identical too.

            Oh I wonder if you could help me with something else. You know when kanji are written in rounded calligraphy, like on vases and lanterns? Is there a standard way of writing in this style, and do you know of any books or sites that teach this? I can recognise 'rice field' in this style, and 'sun', then I run out.. it would just be nice to be able to recognise these unique moon runes! ^^
            Well there is a calligraphy writing style (styles actually!) the basic (chinese terminology, dunno if japanese uses the same terminology) is 書法, book style, the only other i'm familiar with is 草法 which is grass style (a much faster and simpler stroke style). I, myself, don't have much calligraphy training (I've none, lol) but you just kind of run the strokes together. There are actual specific calligraphy forms for every character, like in 草法 that merge strokes entirely together. Reading it just takes a lot of practice :< I can't read a lot of calligraphy.

            Best thing to do imo is find a calligraphy compilation. It'll have a chart with the different styles and examples on how to write each style. You would have to get them in actual chinese or japanese, and I don't think they make english books of them, so I'm not sure how you would search for the actual book. They're big though

            I can give you an easy example. I assume you know the 安 kanji. Written, it's 6 strokes, starting at the top with the dot, then the "roof" part for strokes 2 and 3, then the woman part for strokes for strokes 4 5 and 6. In basic calligraphy, you write it in 4 or 5 strokes, 1 and/or 2 beings the roof part (you skip the top dot) then the last ones being the woman part, where you make the first stroke extra long through the roof for the very first original dot itself.

            Comment


              #21
              Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions

              Thanks, it's maybe something I should try to pick up when (read 'if ever') I'm back in Japan. It's just a shame because the Japanese forum I frequent is pretty slow besides one off visitors posting photos and asking, 'what does this say?'. Sometimes the font is really simple and we can answer easily, but often, it's in caligraphy style and few of us can read it. I can read 'plum' because it's on a teapot I have. Too bad it's usually written in kana in Japanese!

              I don't know anything about the evolution of the Japanese writing system. I do understand hiragana as meaning 'rounded characters', because they are a stylised form of kanji with the same reading. That's as far as my knowledge goes. So before hiragana was established, was there a specific set of kanji used to represent the phonetics? I mean, I assume from the shape and reading that 'ka' came from the kanji for power/strength. So would this kanji have always been used for 'ka'. If so, I'm confused about 'baka' again, but if not, how ever did anyone read anything? I mean, how would you know when a kanji depicted a word, from when it was just there for its sound?

              The more I study of the writing system, the more gratitude I feel towards the Romans!
              夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

              Comment


                #22
                Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions

                This was back before there was hiragana/katana, called manyougana. Kanji could either be used for their sound, or for their meaning. Eventually, certain norms took place and certain kanji were used for the same sounds which then got simplified in writing to become hiragana and katana (iirc) there's something else I'm missing about the development of katakana but I can't remember it.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions

                  Hey Hoho, there is something that came up on my Japanese forum that you might just be able to help with. We often get people asking for translations of song titles and although I'm not really good enough, I try to do my best because few other members ever bother (we just don't have many regular posters, besides me , lol) and it's fun to look up the kanji I don't recognise. Some even stick in my memory!

                  Someone posted today asking for song title translations, but I can't find one of the kanji. My first guess was that maybe this is an old kanji for something that is usually written in hiragana these days, especially as it appears to be something one can cook. I have a feeling you might just know it.

                  The song title is 又见炊烟 and the mysterious kanji is 见, maybe this is a compound with 又, but until I know, I have assumed it to be 'mata' (again) as I'm most familiar with this meaning. So whatever 见 is, there is smoke from cooking it again?? Well, the other song titles were weird too.
                  夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions

                    见 is the simplified chinese form of 見. 又见 is seen again or encountered again. a dictionary say 炊烟 is smoke that comes from chimneys? lol. some type of seeing smoke from something again at least!

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions

                      Originally posted by Hoho View Post
                      见 is the simplified chinese form of 見. 又见 is seen again or encountered again. a dictionary say 炊烟 is smoke that comes from chimneys? lol. some type of seeing smoke from something again at least!
                      Ah I somehow knew you'd know! Smoke from chimneys? I'm afraid I don't know that. As a compound, I can't find it, but I am using denshi jisho and it's definitely far from infallible. I had to look up the second kanji, but I knew 炊 from 炊く (たく.taku) which is to boil. So I just assumed it was the smoke or maybe the fumes from cooking.

                      The song titles were all really weird though. One, unless my translation is wrong, reads 'the first love of an orange'. I just don't understand Japanese music at all!
                      夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions

                        Right, after I told the guy what you said, he googled 'seeing chimney smoke again' and found the song. It's actually a Chinese song that is covered by the Japanese band he was listening to. Because he hasn't been studying Japanese for long, he didn't notice it was in a different language! He sent me a link. http://www.singchinesesongs.com/sing.php?singid=177 Now it makes so much more sense! Thanks for your help!

                        By the way, I don't think I have asked you but is Mandarin your mother tongue, or have you learnt all this as a second language? It's impressive either way of course. Especially as you also understand so much about the Japanese writing system too!
                        夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions

                          english is my mother tongue, mandarin through school. other stuff here and there but nothing id consider proficient in, but it gives me a big linguistic background. i only consider myself a bilingual english/chinese speaker.

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions

                            I know this is firstly a long shot and secondly a bloody cheek, but if any superior Japanese speakers happen to come by (Kijani? Zazaru?), then I'd appreciate feedback on something I just wrote. I have found new podcast lessons and the site is massive. I'm really lost because I was sure I'm only just intermediate but the lower intermediate lessons were a bit easy. So I tried Intermediate, which weirdly has fewer unfamiliar words, but occassionally introduces grammar and expressions I didn't know. My writing and grammar usage are appauling (I consider grammar knowledge and usage differently, because I can explain or recognise some rather advanced grammar, but I often can't use it without mistakes) but seemingly my listening comprehension is pretty good. I didn't think so because I stuggle to catch more than maybe 40% of dialogue in movies or anime, but I listened to the advanced podcasts, which are monolingual blogs by a native Japanese student and I picked up most of it (and what words I didn't know, I could guess at). So I am totally messed up now. I wrote a comment about it to the creators in case they were able to help. The only other time I've ever written more than a few lines, was also on this forum and I'd really like some feedback. I can't get feedback from my friends. The Japanese just won't bloody criticise. So if you ever happen to notice this post, and have the time and energy to help. I'd be very grateful. I feel so alone in my studies. It's just me and my books, which don't offer much feedback either. Oh and the other forum I use? Until recently, I was one of the most advanced learners there. Me! Seriously! I wouldn't really trust feedback I got there. 'eesh, you didn't start every line with 'watashi'? But.. but.. everyone knows real Japanese is like this.. 'watashi wa watashi no hana de watashi no hana wo kagimasu...' my teacher said so!' Okay, I'm exaggerating. I get sarcastic when I'm frustrated (think it's a British thing), but you get the point.

                            So, here is my erm, 'letter'. I can't even bring myself to check it over myself. I just look at it and my brain turns to mush.

                            信じられない!まだ碌々中級だと思ったけどこれをほとんど分かりました。驚いてしまったね!そして、ちょっ と迷っていますけど。 日本語のレブルはどれか知らないから。日本人の友だちによるとぜひ上級なのになかなか書かないし漢字を少な い知っているし日本語の会話はつづけにくいんです。それに日本語がよく間違えっています。知らない言葉のほ うも多いんです。 もしかして日本人友だちが二人いるので聞きと話し練習の機会がよくあって、普通の中級の学習者と比べて私が 可也分かれるんでしょう。それなら、ほんとのレブルはきっと中級でしょう。よく分からない。
                            夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions

                              Oh, I spotted one thing myself. There is no potential form of 'wakaru', because it's already a verb of ability. I knew this, and yet comletely disregarded the rule. All the other 'mistakes' I can spot, are just that I am not sure if I have used an expression correctly. Like, hotondo for example. I use it this way, but I'm not sure if it's right. I'm so frustrated right now I could scream. No reply to me message as of yet either, but I'm not sure how actiave those mods are. I've almost entirely decided to stick to Intermediate, but to listen to the advanced podcasts for a little extra listening practice. So say, study the Intermediate lesson, then cool off with a cup of tea while I listen to the monolingual blog.
                              夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions

                                my japanese is teh suckzors (since I haven't used it in forever), but one thing is since this is a letter, don't mix what books call plain and polite form. Like the first shinjirarerani should be shinjiraremasen. You should add a desu at the end of 日本語のレブルはどれか知らないから, should probably also change the wa to ga in that sentence, don't ask me why! Maybe add some commas after もしかして日本人友だちが二人いるので and の学習者と比べte, and finish with yoku wakarimasen.

                                I'm sure they understand the gist of it if anythings really far off

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X