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    dianic wicca-some qualms

    I'm by no means an expert so please do correct me on anything I say that's wrong. I did a search but I'm on mobile and maybe it didn't work so well 'cause I didn't find anything.

    Has anyone of dianic faith here confronted the transphobia inherent in their path? I'm speaking of course about the "women born women" thing. I've heard many dianic wiccans say "women are born, not created by men on an operating table" and that's so offensive to me because it does not take into account that a woman is more than her body.

    Coming from a feminist viewpoint and speaking about a religious path that touts the ideals of feminism and anti-patriarchy, it seems like a huge joke that they place so much emphasis on the worth of a woman merely by her physicality instead of her heart and mind. Being a woman is much more than what's between your legs, so denying transwomen the right to participate in their practices is exactly like saying that a woman's body is not her own, and it must look and perform a certain way in order to be accepted in society. This is a horribly patriarchal viewpoint and I'm confused as to why a so-called feminist movement would embrace these ideas.

    On a lesser note, I've also noticed that many place a high emphasis on menstruation and say that the power of a woman is strongest during this time. This excludes many women who cannot menstruate, due to either genetics or choice via contraceptives. I feel like the dianic movement is thinly-veiled woman-hate and body policing all covered with a nice thick layer of patriarchy and male-domination.

    Am I wrong, or does anyone have any criticisms? Thanks in advance for shedding some light, and sorry again if I made a repeat post.
    Please disregard typos in above post. I browse the web on a Nook and i suck at typing on touch screens.

    #2
    Re: dianic wicca-some qualms

    The Dianic faith is know for well aggressive feminism. I'm not an expert either but from the Dianics I've met they seem to hate men. I realize thats a huge generalization but I swear thease ladies gnashed their teeth at me. I can't really say anything on their philosophy though.
    Circe

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      #3
      Re: dianic wicca-some qualms

      I don't know how to say what I'm really trying to say here. I don't believe that all religions should be forced to conform to political correctness or should accept all applicants. It's become a pretty big dividing line in the Christian community - many Christians who are gay, or have gay friends and relatives, are leaving more conservative Christian sects for those that are more open and accepting to all people, not just heterosexuals. They're not all becoming non-Christians, and for the most part there aren't a lot of lawsuits being created to force those sects into equal opportunity standards - people are just seeing that there are more paths available and they're taking them.

      I'm an eclectic (and solitary) Pagan, so there are a lot of paths I can choose from. I don't feel like I'm personally being bottlenecked into any particular faith or path, so from my p.o.v., neither is anyone else. I realize that not everyone is an eclectic Pagan, so maybe they are bottlenecked into this kind of scenario.

      If a person is Wiccan and trans, why choose a path that is bigoted, hateful or excludes who you are from their religious or spiritual practices? Why would a person feel the need to bust into that group and force it to be something it's not? If the only Wiccan or Pagan groups in the area are Dianic or maybe Wiccans who exclude gays, or whatever, why not start a more inclusive Pagan group? There's probably some folk around who would be interested in it.
      Last edited by Ophidia; 29 Jan 2012, 19:37.
      The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

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        #4
        Re: dianic wicca-some qualms

        Originally posted by Corvus View Post
        The Dianic faith is know for well aggressive feminism. I'm not an expert either but from the Dianics I've met they seem to hate men. I realize thats a huge generalization but I swear thease ladies gnashed their teeth at me. I can't really say anything on their philosophy though.
        Thank you for your input. I don't think it's that they hate men, they just hate male privilege and how it's so ingrained in soiety that perople (espcially men) don't notice it because it's considered normal and commonplace (I.e the concept of chivalry and why it's inherently sexist).

        ---------- Post added at 09:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:58 PM ----------

        Originally posted by perzephone View Post
        I don't know how to say what I'm really trying to say here. I don't believe that all religions should be forced to conform to political correctness or should accept all applicants. It's become a pretty big dividing line in the Christian community - many Christians who are gay, or have gay friends and relatives, are leaving more conservative Christian sects for those that are more open and accepting to all people, not just heterosexuals. They're not all becoming non-Christians, and for the most part there aren't a lot of lawsuits being created to force those sects into equal opportunity standards - people are just seeing that there are more paths available and they're taking them.

        I'm an eclectic (and solitary) Pagan, so there are a lot of paths I can choose from. I don't feel like I'm personally being bottlenecked into any particular faith or path, so from my p.o.v., neither is anyone else. I realize that not everyone is an eclectic Pagan, so maybe they are bottlenecked into this kind of scenario.

        If a person is Wiccan and trans, why choose a path that is bigoted, hateful or excludes who you are from their religious or spiritual practices? Why would a person feel the need to bust into that group and force it to be something it's not? If the only Wiccan or Pagan groups in the area are Dianic or maybe Wiccans who exclude gays, or whatever, why not start a more inclusive Pagan group? There's probably some folk around who would be interested in it.
        Thanks for replying.

        I understand what you're saying: why would anyone WANT to be part of a group that's hateful? I think what I'm questioning here is more why a person woul want to BE hateful? To use a strong analogy, it's like asking why a black person couldn't just go to a different water fountain when h sign says "whites only". Sure, they could but that's not really the point. Also, I feel like a group like this being thought of as the status quo for feminism is potentially problematic considering their values are entirely opposite what the true feminist agenda is.

        It's sort of like a kid killing a neighbor's dog and sacrificing it to Lucifer and calling themselves Satanists.

        Difficult to explain.
        Please disregard typos in above post. I browse the web on a Nook and i suck at typing on touch screens.

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          #5
          Re: dianic wicca-some qualms

          Originally posted by Just_Wondering View Post
          I understand what you're saying: why would anyone WANT to be part of a group that's hateful? I think what I'm questioning here is more why a person would want to BE hateful?
          Because people are people. Not everyone is nice, not everyone can or will get along with everyone else. Some people just choose to be, feel and think that way.

          To use a strong analogy, it's like asking why a black person couldn't just go to a different water fountain when h sign says "whites only". Sure, they could but that's not really the point.
          The difference that I see is that at one time, black people were forced to comply with racist standards, or they'd go to jail, get run out of town, be attacked or killed, you name it. They didn't really have much choice in the matter but to use 'black only' facilities. A modern Pagan isn't normally subjected to this kind of societal pressure (there are places where they still kill 'witches', and Pagan/occult businesses and individuals are targeted for abuse, and I realize that).

          Also, I feel like a group like this being thought of as the status quo for feminism is potentially problematic considering their values are entirely opposite what the true feminist agenda is.
          To me that seems like a short-sighted perspective on modern feminism. Militant Dianic Wicca today is more like a stereotype, or an outdated and bad joke. At the time it was born, there were only a few voices in feminist Paganism to be heard, and the message they sent out was the strong, rigid, anti-patriarchal Goddess-only-centric message. Now, that's more of an extremist viewpoint, and there are more moderate voices to be heard.
          The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

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            #6
            Re: dianic wicca-some qualms

            Originally posted by perzephone View Post
            Because people are people. Not everyone is nice, not everyone can or will get along with everyone else. Some people just choose to be, feel and think that way.



            The difference that I see is that at one time, black people were forced to comply with racist standards, or they'd go to jail, get run out of town, be attacked or killed, you name it. They didn't really have much choice in the matter but to use 'black only' facilities. A modern Pagan isn't normally subjected to this kind of societal pressure (there are places where they still kill 'witches', and Pagan/occult businesses and individuals are targeted for abuse, and I realize that).



            To me that seems like a short-sighted perspective on modern feminism. Militant Dianic Wicca today is more like a stereotype, or an outdated and bad joke. At the time it was born, there were only a few voices in feminist Paganism to be heard, and the message they sent out was the strong, rigid, anti-patriarchal Goddess-only-centric message. Now, that's more of an extremist viewpoint, and there are more moderate voices to be heard.
            Thanks for your reply! I agree, my analogy is flawed in that respect. I was trying to convey the idea tha hate doesn't go away when you ignore it. I'm sorry for not explaining my point better. I feel like thought processes like this should be challenged and dismantled. The rights of trans people are still highly misunderstood and underemphasized, and I don't think these issues should just be 'let go' because they are what they are. I hope I'm explaining this well. it's been a long day.

            I'm sure I understand what you mean about the origins of the dianic practice. It seems a terrible shame that what could have been a good thing was messed up because of old-school thought. It frustrates me seeing injustice.
            Please disregard typos in above post. I browse the web on a Nook and i suck at typing on touch screens.

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              #7
              Re: dianic wicca-some qualms

              Originally posted by perzephone View Post
              I don't know how to say what I'm really trying to say here. I don't believe that all religions should be forced to conform to political correctness or should accept all applicants.
              Thanks Perze. I wanted to say something similar but couldn't work out how to word it in the right way.
              http://thefeministpagan.blogspot.co.uk/

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