Ask a Pro Life Pagan

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

My own concern with the death penalty stems from the cases where someone facing death is proven innocent at the last moment. I have no problem if indeed the person in question is guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt. There are also cases where the law just wants someone to be guilty just to close the case,and perhaps make political points in the process.

I have deviated from the main point of this thread,and if it needs to be started in another thread,so be it.

It's all right. My answer to the original question is the one that MaskedOne gave you. To sum up - there is a huge difference between killing the innocent and executing those who commit horrendous crimes. It isn't that there is some abstract thing called "life" which is sacred. Life may be sacred for all I know, but I admit that I don't know much, so I don't include the idea in my calculations.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

I have no real issue with raising the burden of proof for executions. There are also some other protections that I'd enjoy seeing. There's a jurisdiction that showed up on TV a while back where the DA's office and the police force are re-investigating a number of old cases where the defendents still profess innocence and they've overturned some of their older convictions. I'm mostly against linking the two subjects. It's significantly more difficult to get oneself a state execution than it is to be aborted. Accused killers get a defense attorney and automatic appeal in capitol cases among other things.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

1. Statistically the profile of a woman most likely to have an abortion is an impoverished woman aged between 25-35 who already has children (yeah, I'm leaving out race here, but I'll get to that one later). With the issue of adoption being costly or the lack of agencies what other programs do you believe would help a woman if abortion or adoption isn't an option?

Well, first off, let's reduce the problem as much as possible by making birth control free and easy and available, and make sure people know how to use it. Second, let's really do something to help those who are in need, aside from offering to kill their children (sorry. Me letting some snark out). And finally, I don't know. But I think that we, as a society, can come up with better answers - although we won't, if we think we can just sweep the problems away.

2. There have been more issues of trying to legislate spontaneous abortion. Since in most cases even doctors can't explain why a woman lost her child in those instances do you feel a legal investigation is warranted?

I think the whole question is idiotic. Not the one you're asking, Caelia, the one you're asking about. I will not excuse or apoligize the conduct of those idiots. In other words, don't look at me! I got nothin' to do with it.

More coming -

---------- Post added at 10:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:46 AM ----------

3. In my own research of trying to understand opposing viewpoints it seems that many people who are pro-life feel they are speaking for the unborn. Since a fetus is also lacking in cognitive capabilities how does this factor into your viewpoint, if at all? Why just the unborn?

LMAO - Caelia, I don't even speak for my wife, and she has most of her gognitive gear wired up and running.

The better way of phrasing it is "spokesperson for." The idea being that, since they have no voice of their own and never will, somebody who cares has decided to speak for (in the sense of "standing up for") them.

Why just the unborn...? I'm not sure I understand what you're asking... I guess I don't feel like speaking for my cat

4. In the case of where a fetus is endangering the life of a woman is abortion OK since the odds of the surviving without the mother are statistically against the fetus?

Yes, but not necessarily for the reason you gave. Where life is at risk it is a medical decision which should be made by the people concerned, as are all other life & death medical decisions.

I know some of these are loaded, but I just don't have a better way to word it right now. I also have more questions but I don't want you to feel any more overwhelmed than you might already.

No problem at all, Caelia. Thanks for asking!

---------- Post added at 11:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:59 AM ----------

Far enough. I've both met and dated people whose parents probably wished they didn't exist.

I'm just leaving this here because you answer your own question about why people shouldn't do this. I want those people to be bon so they can teach all of us that there is beauty in variety, and that what we want isn't always what we get - but sometimes we get what we need.

Issue with this. Why is it bad for humans to do it, when animals do it all the time? Hamsters eat their young, preying mantis eats its mate, etc.

I'm not a hamster or a preying mantis. I'm also not a tuna, jellyfish, or wombat, and several other animals. I'm not modeling my life on them either. Seriously? Are you? Have you bitten the head off a mate lately?

Where we have to agree to disagree is that I don't think a human is human until birth...maaaaybe third trimester. You know, when it gets eyes and a beating heart, and fingers and toes, and genitals and shit.

Yup. This is where we disagree.

I just don't understand pro-life, and I don't think I ever will.

It's flat out easy to understand.

Pro life = a fetus is human
Pro choice = a fetus is not human

Understand those two things and you will understand why, no matter what argument is put forth, neither side will accept the other's - conceptually, they ae talking about two different things.

To understand does not mean to agree, though, and I suspect that is what you actually meant.

[Siloh]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

The council member in Queens was a fascinating Wiki read. So they do exist. I liked your answer. I think there are a lot of issues wrapped up under the umbrella of religiously pertinent political debacles. I mean, if Sarah Palin were every bit the woman she is except she were gay--and the only stance she differed on was sexuality--those people following her today would peace out fast. It just tickles me.

One thing I could never understand with this issue is it seems that pro life people also tend to be pro death penalty,and pro choice people seem to be anti-death penalty. This a general feeling and would not always be true for all pro life or pro choice people. It just seems that the pro life depends on whose life.

I know that this was addressed, and this is so not my thread, but I want to quickly point on that these issues have been bundled largely as a result of language. Are you pro-life or anti-choice? Pro-choice or pro-abortion? Depends on who you ask! Those defending the gay marriage act call opposing bills "anti-family acts." Anyway, the whole "pro-life" terminology spin on things has wrapped the death penalty up in an unrelated issue merely because of its language.

Okay, sorry for the quick hijack. I find this sort of rhetoric super fun.

Corbin, I don't know what this is worth from someone who was adopted into a fairly wealthy family and who is happily breathing and reaping the benefits of the family I was placed with, but as an unwanted child who grew up in a community with mostly other unwanted children who were adopted by parents who desperately wished to provide for any child... I have always wondered about my mother, why she didn't abort me, if she thought about it, and how I felt about that prospect, since it was my life on the line, and I've had so many friends and family members in the same situation of maybe they were almost aborted.

Now I know all the circumstances, and I know it's probably not the option my birth parents would have gone with for mostly fiscal reasons. But, before and even moreso after knowing the facts, I decided that the decision of my life was not mine to make while I shared her body, it was hers. I'm glad to be alive. I'm glad that others like me are alive for the most part.

I had blessed circumstances. Growing up with my biological family would have doomed me as I know myself today, and who knows where else I could have ended up as an adoptee, particularly since my birth father was trying to sell me rather than adopt me. But I could have been robbed of life before exiting the womb, and I really don't resent that idea one bit. I would, however, be totally mortified if I found out that my mother truly wanted to abort me and was thwarted by policy or someone trying to speak for my unborn person. That would really... Just kill me inside. I'd rather be born and pawned for cash or killed in the womb than be born without the blessing of my maker's will.

I realize that this is all really highly personal in so many ways, but you spoke of those who could have died, and you asserted that one must speak up for those without voice. I submit this testimony to you as someone who gained a voice, and I am not touchy on this subject in terms of my experiences, so I thought perhaps this could enrich the conversation.

I've pondered these thoughts since I knew what an abortion was, probably around the ripe age of ten or eleven. Probably since someone told me, "Your mother must have been a teenager." And I'd stay awake at night imagining some poor 16-year-old wretch, crying because she was bearing something she did not want, and wondered why she didn't put herself out of her misery by ending my potential for a future. It seemed to me like the right thing to do if it was what she wanted. I am so glad to know now that no one forced my mother away from that decision but that she willingly chose to bear me into the world.

---------- Post added at 02:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:00 PM ----------

There was a question in there that was supposed to happen, but it's elusive and amorphous. Most simply, what makes you a stronger spokesperson than the person being inhabited by the organism in question? Because if they are born and gain a voice, maybe they would oppose your assertions, yeah?

[Dumuzi]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

Do you think people (who are pro-abortion) are nicer to you when you tell them you are against abortions, knowing you are Pagan, as opposed to their reaction towards Christians?

[Caelia]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

Thank you for your patience with the wording as well as answering my questions.

The reason I was asking about the "those who don't have a voice" is to further understand to what extent one is a spokesperson for life (definitely prefer that term). It's more of an issue I have with why not take that voice further and speak against abuse towards developmentally disabled people (a group where abuse is often ignored, and one that is a bias for me given my experiences) or child trafficking as imo it affects life as well and I want to understand further how one who is pro-life expresses it. Basically like Siloh alluded to is it just against abortion or word mincing gone awry.

Mini-rant: I would like to point out, though, as someone who is technically pro-choice I feel the fetus is a human. I know it's a common misconception to think we commodify life in such a way, but it's a misconception just the same.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

It's flat out easy to understand.

Pro life = a fetus is human
Pro choice = a fetus is not human

Understand those two things and you will understand why, no matter what argument is put forth, neither side will accept the other's - conceptually, they ae talking about two different things.

To understand does not mean to agree, though, and I suspect that is what you actually meant.

This does not always hold true.

---------- Post added at 02:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:45 PM ----------

The reason I was asking about the "those who don't have a voice" is to further understand to what extent one is a spokesperson for life (definitely prefer that term). It's more of an issue I have with why not take that voice further and speak against abuse towards developmentally disabled people (a group where abuse is often ignored, and one that is a bias for me given my experiences) or child trafficking as imo it affects life as well and I want to understand further how one who is pro-life expresses it. Basically like Siloh alluded to is it just against abortion or word mincing gone awry.

Off hand, there are limits to how many causes a person can take up and do justice to at one time. Yes, those topics deserve attention but the fact that they are worth a great deal of attention and effort does not incur moral failure on those who focus on one specific area that is felt to need redress. At most, the lack of success in those fields implies moral failure on the part of large portions of society that sit on their ass and pursue no cause at all.

[Caelia]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

I agree there are limits, hence my questions. I just want to know where it is for one I can safely assume is a person with the average pro-life view rather than extremist views we see all too often in the media.

[Yazichestvo]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

I'm not too crazy about abortion myself. Not to the point that I want to outlaw it though. When life begins is a mysterious question to say the least, and the idea of aborting it makes me uneasy.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

[/COLOR]There was a question in there that was supposed to happen, but it's elusive and amorphous. Most simply, what makes you a stronger spokesperson than the person being inhabited by the organism in question? Because if they are born and gain a voice, maybe they would oppose your assertions, yeah?

Interesting philosophical question, isn't it? If I died when I was not concious of being alive, would I regret not having been born?

A tiny bit of my backstory, which I only recite so you will know I am not a stuffed shirt making proclamations about people I've never met.

I know, beyond a doubt, that, if abortion had been legal and socially acceptable in 1958, I would not be here (Corbin pauses and waites for the "too bads!" and "better luck next times" to die down). Maybe Dad shouldn't have told me, but he never scores high on the sensitivity chart. and yet, despite living in what is now called "crushing poverty," for the next eight years, they ended up (after many youthfull misadventures) fond of me.

OK - so, it is interesting to think about, but, to be honest, it's meaningless. The answer to the philosophical question is this: No. A thing which has never been concious of being alive can not regret not being born.

So I can't answer you directly - it's impossible. But I'll answer you indirectly as best I can -

If I ever got to a point where I believed that I was qualified to pick out who's life is worth living and who's life isn't, I'd know enough to get help instantly. You would too, I think. Applying the same moral principle (Don"t determine life/death issues for others) to a fetus, the outcome is inevitable. I'd hate to have to abandon that moral principle - it's to me, it's a basic assumption in a free society.



No argument that contains the idea "for their own good" holds much water, unless you can ask If you can't ask, you're making it up.

---------- Post added at 03:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:04 PM ----------

The reason I was asking about the "those who don't have a voice" is to further understand to what extent one is a spokesperson for life (definitely prefer that term). It's more of an issue I have with why not take that voice further and speak against abuse towards developmentally disabled people (a group where abuse is often ignored, and one that is a bias for me given my experiences) or child trafficking as imo it affects life as well and I want to understand further how one who is pro-life expresses it. Basically like Siloh alluded to is it just against abortion or word mincing gone awry

How would somebody know that that is not done?

People who are pro life are part of one group. They often overlap with and are part of other groups. It's like asking why an auto mechanic never fixes dinner... the question is funny because the two parts are disconnected.

Edit - I just read Caelia's response to MaskedOne - I don't know what the limits are, I guess it's individual. I do know what my concerns are, and any child related issue has my definite attention. I also care about other stuff, but I guess that becasue I'm not as exposed to it, I don't feel me pushing myself into it.

[Jembru]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

This is the kind of debate I tend to run away from, so don't expect me to get too involved, but.. I have a question for Volcaniclastic..

You mentioned that you don't like to use contraception besides condoms. I'm curious to know if there is any ethical reason for this, or if it is simply a matter of preference. I'm not too keen on taking medication, but if you'll excuse the TMI, my boyfriend is genuinely too large for condoms. He tried for months (without complaining I might add), but it was so painful trying to put one on that we usually had to give up. We tried all kinds of brands with no luck. I eventually had to go on the pill, somewhat reluctantly.

Sorry to go a little off topic. I'm just very curious.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

Do you think people (who are pro-abortion) are nicer to you when you tell them you are against abortions, knowing you are Pagan, as opposed to their reaction towards Christians?

No.

Uhm... selective bias, though, I think, maybe. There are hard conservative pagans, and, from what I've seen in their forums and such, they can range from being reasonable people, to what I think of as loonies. The most extreme voices are generally the loudest, as usual. I like it better here because there is a much more open attitude about things, and people with opeen attitudes are going to be more open to being pro choice.

Outside of here, I don't talk about these things much... really, there's not many people here to talk to (I'm not going to talk about it at work, for sure!).

[Siloh]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

I am earnestly and not at all mockingly wondering if you mistook the core of my question to be the latter segment, growing voices and all that, and not the former question of why the mother is a less suitable spokesperson for an organism that is totally dependent on her, as its only environment, for the process of becoming an independent life form. I'm not sure if you were addressing the questions simultaneously or if you were largely responding to my latter question. If so, that was not the heart of my curiosity, and was really more rhetorical than perhaps was indicated, since this is a Q&A.

But the core of my question is:

Most simply, what makes you a stronger spokesperson than the person being inhabited by the organism in question?

If you did address this and I didn't connect it, I'm really sorry for asking you to connect the dots for me. >.<

[Shahaku]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

First off, I would never have an abortion myself. I've always said that. I appreciate the life of what's in there, whatever stage it's at and do believe it's a living thing. I believe that even if I had to get an abortion (which I have two reason's I would, which I'll get into in a moment) I would seriously regret it, or more be depressed over it.

But I think that my decision is a faith based one and that has no place in political policy. A woman's body is her own and what she does with it is her choice. I respect all religious views and since I do, I realize that there are cultures that don't believe the soul enters a child until they are born, or baptized, or reach a certain age, or go through initiation. And in their belief system, they aren't killing a human being when they have an abortion and who am I to tell them what to believe?

If a fetus was threatening my life, and I knew I would die before they were viable, I would probably have an abortion. Or if I knew for a fact that they would have an almost impossible life from the start, I would probably abort then. There are children born without brains. I had a second cousin born with spina-bifida (hope I spelled that right) and her intestines out side of her stomach. She lived through a week of pain and surgery before passing away and the doctors knew by the fourths month of so that this was going to happen. Her chances of surviving, knowing what they knew, were less that 5%. But she had a twin sister who was fine and they didn't want to threaten the healthy twins life, so they decided to proceed with the pregnancy. I think in these instances, I would rather spare them the pain.

What about children who become pregnant? The youngest mother on earth is something like 8 or 9 years old. They bore the child and they were fine, but is it okay to say that they must carry that child just because the fetus isn't a threat to their life?

Finally, for a direct question, I've seen in several places that a stillborn child isn't treated like a child at all. They aren't allowed to be buried in Catholic cemeteries, and often are treated as waste in the USA. This really is a major issue I have with Christians who are pro-life. It's life, unless it's naturally born dead, then it was never really a life after all. It's kind of hypocritical to me. So how do you view stillborn children?

[volcaniclastic]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

This is the kind of debate I tend to run away from, so don't expect me to get too involved, but.. I have a question for Volcaniclastic..

You mentioned that you don't like to use contraception besides condoms. I'm curious to know if there is any ethical reason for this, or if it is simply a matter of preference. I'm not too keen on taking medication, but if you'll excuse the TMI, my boyfriend is genuinely too large for condoms. He tried for months (without complaining I might add), but it was so painful trying to put one on that we usually had to give up. We tried all kinds of brands with no luck. I eventually had to go on the pill, somewhat reluctantly.

Sorry to go a little off topic. I'm just very curious.

Well, to be honest, there are two main reasons, but before I mention them, I will mention that I hate condoms, too. But necessities and all, right? Anyhow:
1) taking hormones creeps the shit out of me. I realize that the copper IUD is an option in the non-hormonal department, but sticking something inside of me is gross too. And no, I can't explain further - this is just a fact of life for me.
2) Family history of birth control being really awful to the brain chemistry of the female members of my family. I'm not taking crazy pills because I need to not have kids.

Answer the question?