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At what point does a person stop being Wiccan and become something else?

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    #16
    Re: At what point does a person stop being Wiccan and become something else?

    Yup, AFAIC, Wicca=a duotheistic belief in deity or a soft-polytheistic duotheism, some sort of religiously significant WOTY mythological construct, a rationalization of the Rede and incorporation of that rationalization into one's religious ethics and some semblance of worship in the ritual format created by Gardner.

    There are a number of offshoots though, that still call themselves Wiccan, and vary a bit in things like deity-belief or adherence to the Rede. Dianic Wicca for one, Trinitarian Wicca (a specific form of Christian-Wicca)...and most of the Wiccans that I know have very non-literal beliefs in things like the Rede and the three-fold law (even--or maybe I should say especially--among the couple of Gardnerians I know). But I really don't know any Wiccans that don't keep the WOTY, and don't have a formal ritual structure (at least not on a regular basis--maybe on a experimental basis) roughly following the format laid out by Gardner.
    Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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      #17
      Re: At what point does a person stop being Wiccan and become something else?

      Surely as a naturally gregarious species, human beings will often lean towards a desire to belong to a group. There is a stereoptype of pagan-types.. that they don't feel they 'fit in' in society, often they are part of sub-cultures, punk, goth, emo or, whatever I am (there are others like me but I'm not sure what lable we go by) in which standing out and being 'unique' is the style. This doesn't by any means apply to everyone who is pagan, so not everyone is going to need their path to be as unusual as possible. Surely some people will retain that instinctive need to belong.

      I'm not trying to generalise nor judge of course. I'm also aware that goth, punk and emo are themselves lables. Just offering a theory as to why some people need to fit into a box, that also highlights that it is natural and so, hardly 'unpagan'.

      ---------- Post added at 01:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:40 AM ----------

      Oh I agree with Thal that all the Wiccans I know celebrate the wheel, with the only difference being some traditions leave out one or two sabbats, particularly those that overlap with busy farming seasons. There are however, still plenty of folk with a similar concept of deity, who also celebrate the Sabbats and still prefer terms like 'hedgewitch' 'eclectic' or just 'witch'. So I still think choice is the deciding factor. There is probably a reluctance to use the term because of the militants thumping Gardner's BOS and hissing that only lineaged lines are legit. I'm so thankful there is so little of that on this forum.
      夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

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        #18
        Re: At what point does a person stop being Wiccan and become something else?

        Originally posted by Jembru View Post
        There are however, still plenty of folk with a similar concept of deity, who also celebrate the Sabbats and still prefer terms like 'hedgewitch' 'eclectic' or just 'witch'.
        For me (since I go more with "witch", but was at one time Wiccan) the difference between how I celebrate the Sabbats and the Wiccan WOTY is the whole WOTY mythology that involves the duotheism (think a la the Farrar's books) thing, vs a seasonal celebration.
        Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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          #19
          Re: At what point does a person stop being Wiccan and become something else?

          Originally posted by thalassa View Post
          For me (since I go more with "witch", but was at one time Wiccan) the difference between how I celebrate the Sabbats and the Wiccan WOTY is the whole WOTY mythology that involves the duotheism (think a la the Farrar's books) thing, vs a seasonal celebration.
          Very interesting. I never even considered the link but around the time I dropped the Wiccan lable, I also changed the mythology of the Wheel to something that makes a lot more sense to me (although admittedly still documents the relationship between Lord and Lady). I also don't bother with a circle now. I just feel less 'wiccan', even though I must appear very wiccan from the outside. I've never paid enough attention to notice if this is so for others. Too bad I rarely rub shoulders with other pagans these days. I'd love to ask around.
          夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

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            #20
            Re: At what point does a person stop being Wiccan and become something else?

            Originally posted by Jembru View Post
            Very interesting. I never even considered the link but around the time I dropped the Wiccan lable, I also changed the mythology of the Wheel to something that makes a lot more sense to me (although admittedly still documents the relationship between Lord and Lady). I also don't bother with a circle now. I just feel less 'wiccan', even though I must appear very wiccan from the outside. I've never paid enough attention to notice if this is so for others. Too bad I rarely rub shoulders with other pagans these days. I'd love to ask around.
            What about the Wheel didn't make sense to you?
            There once was a man who said though,
            It seems that I know that I know,
            What I'd like to see,
            Is the I that knows me,
            When I know that I know that I know.

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              #21
              Re: At what point does a person stop being Wiccan and become something else?

              Originally posted by GabrielWithoutWings View Post
              What about the Wheel didn't make sense to you?
              Mainly the timing and in particlar, the story of Oak and Holy King. Also the sacrifice of the Horned One at Lughnasadh (or at Litha in some versions). As romantic a tale as it is, I consider the HORNED God to reside over the wild: animals in particular. Looking at the history, there doesn't seem to be much compelling evidence that he was a god of cultivated crops. So I changed it. Now my Wheel works for me and no half of the year is godless. Both God and Goddess change their cloaks, but both remain, while the Green Man (whom I associate with the myth of Oak and Holy King), is the sacrificial, resurecting spirit in my theology.
              夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

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                #22
                Re: At what point does a person stop being Wiccan and become something else?

                Originally posted by GabrielWithoutWings View Post
                What about the Wheel didn't make sense to you?
                I know for me it's personal.

                The 'meta' themes make sense, but me celebrating them religiously does not. Especially in Alexandrian Wicca. The idea of the Horned God/Sun God being split into the Holly King/Oak King never sat right with me, even when I was a Wiccan. I tried seeing them as facets of the Horned God, but for one to ritually slay the other... noooo, didn't work, didn't feel right. When I was Wiccan, and even now, I'm sort of stuck on the idea that the Great Mother Goddess as Maiden-Mother-Crone is with us through the whole of the year , and the God-as-Stag-and-Sun is born, loves Her, fathers Himself, grows to full strength with the Summer Solstice, wanes into elderhood at the Autumn Equinox, dies at Samhain (or is slain by the Goddess in Her aspect as Dark Mother) and is reborn at Yule. One solar year, one solar God.

                A lot of it's the emphasis on agriculture & animal husbandry. When I'm actively gardening, I feel very connected to the equinoxes & solstices, but it's been years since I've maintained a garden. Yes, I know you can relate the whole birth/fertility/harvest metaphor to personal growth cycles (like starting a business, writing a book, going to school for a degree, whatevs) but the celebration of the Sabbats feels so tied to an agrarian lifestyle. Especially when you visit people, read books or websites & all anyone ever talks about is decorating their altar with 'seasonal' greenery, lol. Trying to apply the WotY to personal goals seems only practical to me if I have a goal that's going to take a year or two to bring to fruition. I don't have long-term goals like that. And I'm not physically connected to the fertility/life aspect of it, not being a mother, and especially now that I have no uterus or ovaries.

                I've also stopped living in denial about being spiritually fulfilled by 'Nature-with-a-capital-N'. I'm not. I live in a city in a desert for a reason. I do not enjoy long hikes, camping, mountain climbing or tree-hugging (I can do it if I have to, but as long as there are hotels with room service close to national wilderness preserves, why should I?). Snow doesn't fill me with inner peace and joy. If I tried to dance naked in a meadow, I'd need to be covered in bug repellent, sunblock and high on Benadryl. I like Nature in its proper place, not crawling on me, and without me stuck in the middle of it mucking things up.
                The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

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                  #23
                  Re: At what point does a person stop being Wiccan and become something else?

                  The 'meta' themes make sense, but me celebrating them religiously does not. Especially in Alexandrian Wicca. The idea of the Horned God/Sun God being split into the Holly King/Oak King never sat right with me, even when I was a Wiccan. I tried seeing them as facets of the Horned God, but for one to ritually slay the other... noooo, didn't work, didn't feel right. When I was Wiccan, and even now, I'm sort of stuck on the idea that the Great Mother Goddess as Maiden-Mother-Crone is with us through the whole of the year , and the God-as-Stag-and-Sun is born, loves Her, fathers Himself, grows to full strength with the Summer Solstice, wanes into elderhood at the Autumn Equinox, dies at Samhain (or is slain by the Goddess in Her aspect as Dark Mother) and is reborn at Yule. One solar year, one solar God.
                  This. I've never *gotten* the whole Holly King/Oak King thing ever (well, I get it, but I don't *feel* it)...I don't think that a necessity to be Wiccan overall (though I think the second version you explain is a a minimum example). Strangely enough, even though I don't totally agree with the mythology of it, I use the "baby sun king-boy sun king-daddy sun king-grandpa sun king" to explain the WOTY to the kids, in terms of the solar aspect.

                  Interestingly (slightly off topic), we've raised the munchkins with a pretty generic and non-specific concept of god/gods--mostly that different people and different cultures see god in different ways and have different names for the gods. Chickadee is 5--She's familiar with mythology (including the Bible), and she pretty much makes up her own gods and mythololgy as she sees fit--Mother Moon, Rini Oh-SHEN (you have to say it like that, lol), Father Mountain, the Star Sisters, Gramma Planet, the Sun King, H'sheth, Mimi, Sa, G'geegle (I *think* they are all nature spirits of some sort, since she equates them with different animals and plants). Some of them she's picked up from us, but others she seems to have come up with entirely on her own, or has changed concepts she's heard of to fit her own head. She's one creative cookie...
                  Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                    #24
                    Re: At what point does a person stop being Wiccan and become something else?

                    Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                    Interestingly (slightly off topic), we've raised the munchkins with a pretty generic and non-specific concept of god/gods--mostly that different people and different cultures see god in different ways and have different names for the gods. Chickadee is 5--She's familiar with mythology (including the Bible), and she pretty much makes up her own gods and mythololgy as she sees fit--Mother Moon, Rini Oh-SHEN (you have to say it like that, lol), Father Mountain, the Star Sisters, Gramma Planet, the Sun King, H'sheth, Mimi, Sa, G'geegle (I *think* they are all nature spirits of some sort, since she equates them with different animals and plants). Some of them she's picked up from us, but others she seems to have come up with entirely on her own, or has changed concepts she's heard of to fit her own head. She's one creative cookie...
                    Wow. That is really awesome Some of her 'names' raised the hair on my arms when I read them. Who is your kid talkin' to out there?
                    The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

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                      #25
                      Re: At what point does a person stop being Wiccan and become something else?

                      Originally posted by perzephone View Post
                      Wow. That is really awesome Some of her 'names' raised the hair on my arms when I read them. Who is your kid talkin' to out there?
                      lol, yeah I know! She talks to plants and birds and trees and things I don't always see... Maybe I'll ask her to explain her pantheon tomorrow--I know there are others, but I can't keep them all straight.
                      Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                        #26
                        Re: At what point does a person stop being Wiccan and become something else?

                        Thal, my niece is a little like that too, although in recent years, she seems to have grown away from it all and just wants to wear makeup and listen to One Direction. Maybe she'll return when her teens are over.

                        Well, it seems I am not alone in being uncomfortable with Holly and Oak king. That's a relief. It just never made sense to me and seemed forced. Historically, it doesn't even seem to go back any further than the middle ages and the robin/wren thing was far more common (I even speculate that the kings were just a poetic rewrite of this tale). It looks very much as though Alex King of the Witches Sanders just liked the story and tried to force it to fit with the wheel. I don't see the kings as gods, but rather metaphors for the different stages the Green Man experiences. I like the Green Man, would feel wrong celebrating Lady Brigantia and Lord Bregans without him!
                        夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

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                          #27
                          Re: At what point does a person stop being Wiccan and become something else?

                          I love the green man too - he (together with the green maiden) is an essential part of my own path and acts as my guide. Now I know that some will say there is only the Green Man and not the Maiden, but I'm not so sure. Many of the images are decidedly androgynous and personally I think some look female. It works for me, it helps me maintain balance, so I'm going with it. :-)
                          www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                          Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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                            #28
                            Re: At what point does a person stop being Wiccan and become something else?

                            I'm actually a newcomer to the whole Oak King / Holly King mythos, somehow. I don't think I'd really have a problem with it. It seems to me to be a re-telling of the warring brothers. First read about it a couple of weeks ago. The first thing I thought when I did was, "This sounds like Horus and Set and Jesus and Lucifer."
                            There once was a man who said though,
                            It seems that I know that I know,
                            What I'd like to see,
                            Is the I that knows me,
                            When I know that I know that I know.

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                              #29
                              Re: At what point does a person stop being Wiccan and become something else?

                              Originally posted by GabrielWithoutWings View Post
                              I'm actually a newcomer to the whole Oak King / Holly King mythos, somehow. I don't think I'd really have a problem with it. It seems to me to be a re-telling of the warring brothers. First read about it a couple of weeks ago. The first thing I thought when I did was, "This sounds like Horus and Set and Jesus and Lucifer."
                              I believe from what I've experienced and from what has been written here, you as most of us will evolve and change as you travel down "Your" path. I think very few of us or anyone else who has professed them self Pagan (no matter what denomination) would be able to truthfully say they have not evolved in some way as new ideas, information, and yes self discovered facets of your beliefs are brought to light. Don't let anyone tell you(you didn't say if you are totally new to the pagan life) there is only one way or path to follow. As most will tell you do what feels right and feel free to change what doesn't. Most of us are prolific readers and collectors of books and information. This is one of the things I love about Being Pagan, the ability to read, learn, and adjust things to make them "Fit" better as I travel my own path. So far no large(some small ones) lighting bolts have come my way so the powers that be must be OK with that.
                              Gargoyles watch over me...I can hear them snicker in the dark.


                              Pull the operating handle (which protrudes from the right side of the receiver) smartly to the rear and release it.

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                                #30
                                Re: At what point does a person stop being Wiccan and become something else?

                                Originally posted by perzephone View Post
                                And now, when invited to participate in an open Wiccan ritual, I can go through the motions and not embarrass myself or others, but I do feel kind of goofy, like attending Catholic mass with someone & having to sit-stand-kneel-sing-along-and-try-not-to-giggle-when-the-priest-says-'wooOOooomb'.
                                I kind of relate. I actually still enjoy attending Christian rituals. You know, at the moment I sort of consider myself a "liturgical Wiccan", because the pagan group I'm a member of celebrates the Wheel of the Year rituals, like a Catholic who enjoys the ritual and attends Mass but doesn't really believe in what the priest says. I like the fact Wicca has clear cut practices and rituals because I enjoy the community of celebrating them en masse...when people get together and celebrate a sabbat, practicing certain things in unison, believing certain things about what is being done...the mass participation does give it its own spiritual power. But the very clear cut-ness that allows this is what really prevents me from believing in it on the deepest levels.

                                Paganism tends to appeal to individualistic people and we live in a very "follow your own guidance" age. I'm no exception to that tendency. So it might be hard for a lot of people to consider themselves Wiccans in the technical sense. But let's not forget the fact a lot of Catholics don't really believe in everything the church teaches either, and still consider themselves Catholics.

                                Personally I very much like the idea of celebrating a ritual en masse but everyone putting their own subjective meaning into it, if that makes any sense. It's the closest I can think of to getting the best of both worlds.

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