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    Basic occult/pagan belief questions from an atheist.

    Answer what you can:

    The way i view magick is more I see it more as the ability to control, read, manipulate, and channel mental and emotional energies and in a logically constructed manner within close counters. Why do some high ranking occultists believe that spells actually work, especially through socially constructed language and of which aren't based on concrete and logical channeling of energies. This may be closer to psychics but i'm still a total noob/ignorant when it comes to this.

    The way i still view it and please prove me otherwise. Is that if do a love spell you can do that to thousands of people and stop wars. Where's the logic or practice behind commanding spells? How do you know they work?

    How do you inflict or harness energy from towards an unrelated or distant case, or towards something that defies logic?

    How do you believe in gods when you know there are human constructs representing limited cultural icons from a period of time for different elements in the world. Is it pathological? Or is just mental masturbation and/or can you worship in a non-orthodox way?


    What with the belief in contacting the dead when there is no proof that the dead have an afterlife?

    #2
    Re: Basic occult/pagan belief questions from an atheist.

    Before I waste my time bothering to answer any of your "questions"...

    Are you a troll, or do you just lack manners?
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      #3
      Re: Basic occult/pagan belief questions from an atheist.

      sorry about the bluntness. I just wanted to ask them. Not a troll. Don't take it personally!

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        #4
        Re: Basic occult/pagan belief questions from an atheist.

        Originally posted by greenhead View Post
        Answer what you can:

        The way i view magick is more I see it more as the ability to control, read, manipulate, and channel mental and emotional energies and in a logically constructed manner within close counters. Why do some high ranking occultists believe that spells actually work, especially through socially constructed language and of which aren't based on concrete and logical channeling of energies. This may be closer to psychics but i'm still a total noob/ignorant when it comes to this.
        Ultimately I see magic working the same as beliefs in that regard. Many forms of magic / occult / etc. have a system for how one believes these things work within them.

        The way i still view it and please prove me otherwise. Is that if do a love spell you can do that to thousands of people and stop wars. Where's the logic or practice behind commanding spells? How do you know they work?
        Like I said I see magic as a form of belief, which ultimately can't be argued unless one argues within the parameters of that belief. It's why people have a difficult time understanding quantum mechanics, as something more "science-y" for a parallel to what I'm saying.

        How do you inflict or harness energy from towards an unrelated or distant case, or towards something that defies logic?
        Depends on which belief we're discussing.

        How do you believe in gods when you know there are human constructs representing limited cultural icons from a period of time for different elements in the world. Is it pathological? Or is just mental masturbation and/or can you worship in a non-orthodox way?
        Look up "suspension of disbelief".

        What with the belief in contacting the dead when there is no proof that the dead have an afterlife?
        Again, beliefs. Not every belief system believes one can even contact the dead.

        I think if we can get more specifics about what you're asking rather than catch-all belief question it may help folks a bit more
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          #5
          Re: Basic occult/pagan belief questions from an atheist.

          Originally posted by thalassa View Post
          Before I waste my time bothering to answer any of your "questions"...

          Are you a troll, or do you just lack manners?
          Yeah...my sentiments exactly.

          What's the point in asking a theist if they just believe in gods because of MENTAL MASTURBATION? Are you serious? Do you think you are going to get lots of people answering that in a meaningful way?

          You aren't being blunt, you are basically saying "why are you guys so stupid?"
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            #6
            Re: Basic occult/pagan belief questions from an atheist.

            no I basically said is it a pathology or mental masturbation? Or can it be deeper and non-orthodox. On the surface to a stranger of pagan and other religious faiths, it can possibly appear to be as such.

            Basically how does work thats make it real and a valid spiritual belief system?


            To an atheist it is very hard to conceive worshipping icons let alone a deity. I'm just asking. How do do youform relationships with these gods? How does it work? How do you know you are communicating (on any level) with gods you simply seek interest in.
            Last edited by greenhead; 04 May 2012, 11:28.

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              #7
              Re: Basic occult/pagan belief questions from an atheist.

              Originally posted by greenhead View Post


              What with the belief in contacting the dead when there is no proof that the dead have an afterlife?
              If you've experienced it you would know.

              You live in a universe with no proof on how it was created. Use that analogy. And before you reply with the big bang theory, let me ask you, what created the initial energy required for the big bang to occur?
              Last edited by Spright; 04 May 2012, 11:43.

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                #8
                Re: Basic occult/pagan belief questions from an atheist.

                Originally posted by greenhead View Post
                no I basically said is it a pathology or mental masturbation? Or can it be deeper and non-orthodox. On the surface to a stranger of pagan and other religious faiths, it can possibly appear to be as such.

                Basically how does work thats make it real and a valid spiritual belief system?


                To an atheist it is very hard to conceive worshipping icons let alone a deity. I'm just asking. How do do youform relationships with these gods? How does it work? How do you know you are communicating (on any level) with gods you simply seek interest in.
                Ok, I get it now. By the way, I'm an atheist and was raised as one. It's not hard for me to conceive of worshiping a deity. The vast majority of the people in the US do so. Sure, it's totally foreign to me on a logical level, but I get the feeling you can't even understand the concept. Have you never spoken with a religious person before? Everyone connects with their deity(ies) in a different way. Simply through prayer, meditation, ritual, just by being in nature etc. Or even having dreams, visions, etc. I've heard lots of pagans saying they could feel "something" for along time - either in dreams or as though something was guiding them. It would then take concentrated effort to identify this 'something' as a particular god/dess. Many Christians see God in everyday things - minor miracles, their happy lives, a good deal at the store. Everyone is different and equally valid in their eyes.
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                  #9
                  Re: Basic occult/pagan belief questions from an atheist.

                  I mean, I understand what he's getting at. I don't really understand why everyone else is getting in such a fit over it. He's just asking us questions about the fundamental basis of our religions or beliefs. He's being critical of them, which is completely fair and valid. We are, after all, making seriously extraordinary claims.

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                    #10
                    Re: Basic occult/pagan belief questions from an atheist.

                    I can't speak for anyone else, but personally - I don't worship deities, just highly respect them and the symbology behind them. Can't say I've done enough investigation into the matter to really form a firm opinion either way about deities except that, as I'm a huge culture, religion and language buff, to me every deity is a beautiful thing - and I think there's definitely some kind of validity to it all. But I'm less focused on deities than I am focused on things like energy work/magic (whatever you prefer to call it) and a whole bunch of other stuff like that...

                    And for me, I never took a single step into believing anything without lengthy study and searching for evidence. My parents were crazy cultists so I am no stranger to blind fanaticism and overly emotion-based spirituality and just how bat-poop crazy and dangerous it can get. So with every single step I was cautious, studied hard, and refused to let someone else pull me into any kind of religious affiliation (while studying as many religions as I could at a cautious distance). The journey all the way to being a constant energy-worker, diviner, talking with spirits and all this other stuff was a REALLY long one. With every new step I demanded undeniable proof (not just "oh hey a song came on the radio and it seemed to answer me!" BS) - and I got it, repeatedly, in a whole host of shocking ways. In the end I started to think, well, the truth is stranger than fiction. If ever a previously-held belief of mine is proven to be in error, I discard it; and when new experiences come around, I go through the whole process again, making sure it's valid before I go forward.

                    So when asked why I believe what I do now, I just say I'd be crazy NOT to believe most of it considering what's happened. But if I hadn't been presented with those experiences and those proofs, I probably would still be agnostic today. *shrug*

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                      #11
                      Re: Basic occult/pagan belief questions from an atheist.

                      Originally posted by Louisvillian View Post
                      He's being critical of them, which is completely fair and valid. We are, after all, making seriously extraordinary claims.
                      And of course it could also be said that atheists etc are making equally extraordinary claims....
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                        #12
                        Re: Basic occult/pagan belief questions from an atheist.

                        Originally posted by greenhead View Post
                        Answer what you can:

                        The way i view magick is more I see it more as the ability to control, read, manipulate, and channel mental and emotional energies and in a logically constructed manner within close counters. Why do some high ranking occultists believe that spells actually work, especially through socially constructed language and of which aren't based on concrete and logical channeling of energies. This may be closer to psychics but i'm still a total noob/ignorant when it comes to this.

                        The way i still view it and please prove me otherwise. Is that if do a love spell you can do that to thousands of people and stop wars. Where's the logic or practice behind commanding spells? How do you know they work?

                        How do you inflict or harness energy from towards an unrelated or distant case, or towards something that defies logic?

                        How do you believe in gods when you know there are human constructs representing limited cultural icons from a period of time for different elements in the world. Is it pathological? Or is just mental masturbation and/or can you worship in a non-orthodox way?


                        What with the belief in contacting the dead when there is no proof that the dead have an afterlife?
                        I tend to look at magic/spells in somewhat of a "logical" and occasionally even "scientific" way. So think of it this way, a human is made of cells, cells are made of molecules, molecules are made of atoms, atoms are protons/neutrons/electrons. Protons are positive energy, neutrons are neutral energy, and electrons are negative energy. Not only is the human made of this but EVERYTHING is made of energy in different densities. Is it REALLY that illogical that energy has the ability to effect energy? Even your very thoughts are a measurable quantifiable energy. So it is my personal belief that when a person has a thought and stays on that "electrical wavelength" for an extended period of time it has the capability to effect the other energies around them. Most humans bounce from thought to thought without any form of control or purpose, their minds are on auto pilot so their minimal thoughts have little effect on the world.

                        As far as Gods and Goddesses go, I believe that is a personal choice and something of faith that no one can explain why they are "right" or "wrong". However if you expect me to believe that you weren't attempting to be disrespectful to those who do believe in a God/Goddess then I find that completely illogical. If you did not want to offend anyone then you would not have used the words "mental masturbation".

                        As far as the fact that the dead not having an afterlife... "Energy cannot be created nor destroyed, it can only change forms" so maybe when Grandpa died he really was just buried in the ground and became worm food and fertilized the nearby foliage. But what happened to Grandpa's thoughts? His electrical current that kept his heart beating and his neurons firing? His soul (if you believe in it)? I don't know and neither do you, and neither of us will be proven "right" or "wrong" until we die and discover the truth for ourselves.

                        I suggest you go first.
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                          #13
                          Re: Basic occult/pagan belief questions from an atheist.

                          Originally posted by LiadanWillows View Post
                          I don't know and neither do you, and neither of us will be proven "right" or "wrong" until we die and discover the truth for ourselves.

                          I suggest you go first.
                          Was that not a little harsh to imply that he should go die simply because the term "mental masturbation" was offensive to you?

                          Anyway, greenhead, your crude phrasing aside, I am like you in that I find it very difficult to believe in the concept of a deity. I was raised very Catholic and was told all my life to form a "relationship" with God, and as I grew older, the less I felt like that would ever happen and thought that it wasn't even possible. I get where you're coming from, especially now that I'm atheistic myself.

                          One thing that being raised Catholic has taught me is that just because something is not real to you does not, in any way, mean it is not real to someone else. My aunt sees the face of Jesus in one of the pictures she took of her grandmother in the hospital, right before she died. The sight comforts her and makes her happy despite the rest of the family seeing nothing in the picture. Even if we are right and it's nothing, the feelings and joy she gets from that picture are very, very real - and never would I try to take that away from her or ask her if it's just "mental masturbation." Do you now understand why, whether or not you intended that, it was pretty cruel for you to say?

                          Everyone has their own experiences that shape their own personal belief system. It is only those that blindly follow their faith and harm those around them that you should make your target, not those who have found their own path. Even if you think it's stupid, it's very real to many people.

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                            #14
                            Re: Basic occult/pagan belief questions from an atheist.

                            Originally posted by Adosia View Post
                            Was that not a little harsh to imply that he should go die simply because the term "mental masturbation" was offensive to you?
                            Didnt mean to imply that he should drop dead. I realize now how you would think that's what I meant. I guess I meant it more like, better you than me. Dying does not happen to be on my to do list this week
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                              #15
                              Re: Basic occult/pagan belief questions from an atheist.

                              Adosia, the term mental masturbation may have been offensive to Liaden, but I don't see any connection between it and her comment about dying.

                              Personally, I don't find the term mental masturbation offensive at all, just crass. Because frankly it doesn't really mean much at all.

                              What I do find slightly curious are posters who constantly demand our thoughts, opinions and information, but offer little themselves in return. Have a look at http://www.paganforum.com/showthread...5881#post65881 for an example. If you really want information on the subject, then explaining exactly what you want isn't unreasonable. As it happens I probably could have answered quite a bit on that one because I wrote a well respect book 'The Magical Properties of Plants' on that subject a few years ago.

                              I don't mind answering questions, but not when the net is cast so ridiculously wide. It does rather erode one's patience. Still, I suppose all will be revealed in due course....
                              Last edited by Tylluan Penry; 29 May 2012, 10:31. Reason: to take out all the swear words ;)
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