When is black magic justified in your opinion and what are its limits?
Has anything shown direct results?
When is black magic justified in your opinion and what are its limits?
Has anything shown direct results?
How do you define magic?
How do you define "black" magic, for that matter?
How would results be any different from, for example, praying or rubbing a lucky coin?
If something is unethical to do, or involves things like cursing others, chances are you won't have people sharing info about it on here. That said, not everyone in here believes in the Wiccan "do no harm", and rule of three guidelines.
Define 'black magic'.
If you mean use of power to attack a fellow sapient being then I support it in most of the same conditions that I support any form of agression. Namely, to defend yourself or another against an aggressor.
If you're thinking of something else (and there are several other possible options), I'll need specifics.
"It is not simply enough to know the light…a Jedi must feel the tension between the two sides of the Force…in himself and in the universe."
―Thon
"When to the Force you truly give yourself, all you do expresses the truth of who you are,"
Yoda
Yoda told stories, and ate, and cried, and laughed: and the Padawans saw that life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.
Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
"But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."
John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper
"You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."
Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis
Generally speaking, if your morals & ethics prevent you from doing something via mundane means, or if you'd feel bad about doing something in the 'real world', you probably shouldn't look to magic to do it either. If you can find a compelling justification to commit murder, then you can find a compelling reason to use magic to kill someone.
Magic is magic, energy is energy. There is no 'evil' energy or 'black' magic - only malicious people. Or angry people. Or hurting people. Anger and pain and jealousy and desperation can make perfectly nice, perfectly normal people do some horrible things. And there are just some horrible people out there (myself included). The biggest difference between positive magic and negative magic is that, for the most part, negative deeds are easier. Magic is emotional, and it's a hell of a lot easier to do something in the heat of rage or heartbreak than it is to calm down and think rationally.
The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.
Well put perze.
The answer to this question lies within yourself. What are your ethics and morals? What do you value?
Do you believe in "the golden rule"? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Do you believe in "an eye for an eye"? You have stolen a loaf of bread, so now we cut of your arm.
If you feel someone has wronged you and you believe that you should perform a spell to "make it even" that is your choice. You could also choose to "pray" for that person and ask the God/dess to give that person the ability to see how they have wronged you and even ask the God/dess to give you the strength to forgive them and their wrong doings. Or you can do anything in between.
The beautiful thing about magic is it suits the good, the bad, and everything in between.
I agree with Perze, my morals and ethics define every choice I make be it mundane or magical. The big decider for me is always personal responsibility. I weigh up all possible consequences of my actions and if I am willing to take 100% responsibility for those consequences I am good to go. I am also aware that I can not always know every possible consequence so deciding whether I am willing to take responsibility for those I didn't forsee is another major factor.
Have I used magic to cause someone else harm? Nope. Would I if it was to defend myself or the people I care about? You can bet your last pound I would.
Aside from what everyone else has said...or perhaps in line with...
wrong is wrong is wrong is wrong
No matter what tool its achieved with.
(now if we want a discussion over what exactly is "wrong", thats an entirely different discussion)
“You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom
“We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee
"We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History
"Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett
Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
In my opinion, black magick is justified all the time....so long as you know what you're doing/that it is worth it. Though i don't separate magick into blacks and whites
"You have your swords. I have my tricks. We play with the toys the gods give us."
“While much is too strange to be believed, nothing is too strange to have happened.”
I don't think it ever is justified. I don't believe force should be used against anything unprovoked. I agree wholly with the Wiccan crede of "harm none" and the libertarian non aggression principle.
If unjustified aggression is used against you, however, I personally think it is acceptable to stand up for yourself and return the attack, whereas some may advise letting karma handle the paybacks, but I wouldn't rule out the latter.
As far as magic goes, I don't think there are any limits. Much like the universe.
Last edited by LirvA; 04 Jun 2012 at 02:12.
As far as your "direct results" question. I have an example, however any skeptic could call it coincidence. I was having a lot of difficulty at work because of one particular coworker CONSTANTLY gossiping about other coworkers. It made the whole work environment tense. On multiple occasions I told her "if you are going to talk bad about someone, don't do it in front of me." or stating "hmm... I wonder what you say about me when I walk away." But it seemed no matter what I did or said this coworker continued to bad mouth her peers. Eventually things became so hostile I was dreading going to work. I decided then to work a spell.Originally Posted by greenhead
The spell is done with candles and Tarot cards Emperor Justice and Strength
Candle of Power, Candle so Bright
I seek a need of change in your Light
I call on the forces higher than I
To release the energy that is held inside
If words of cruelty be spoken any
May it return three times three
If words of hate disgrace a name
Bring the sender guilt and shame
By the powers of Moon and Sun
From your lips there shall be none!
So mote it be.
The candle then burns until it is self extinguished.
This particular coworker two days later became violently ill and was in the Emergency Room with severe stomach pain. According to her, the doctors could not find the reason she was having this pain even though numerous lab tests and imaging was done. They had assumed that she perhaps had a stomach flu. She was in the hospital for two days. When she returned to work the gossiping stopped. She rarely talks bad about anyone and the work environment has been pleasant ever since.
Do I regret doing the spell? NO! But I am not happy that she was in the hospital and so ill. I didn't ASK the God/dess to make her ill. But perhaps that was the universe or karma's way of dealing with the gossip. It returned three times three...
Last edited by LiadanWillows; 06 Jun 2012 at 18:21. Reason: typo
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