Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

[thalassa]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

In which case, the members of that group ought to provide donations and keep a common treasury (depending on the size of the group or community) as a matter of good will and practical sense. But I stop short of mandating fees for religious gatherings. It's the difference between a tithe and voluntary donations. But that's really just me; I would stop short of such things and not participate with a group that charged fees for participating in, say, a Sabbat circle. They can do whatever they want; just don't expect me to agree with them or comply with such demands.

Vigdisdotter already covered the first half of this...so I'll skip the problems with that (which I've also encountered).

I really don't know of any group that charges a fee for a circle, unless it involoves renting a space, or additional supplies, etc...in which everyone is expected to chip in for the cost. REalisitically, what costs are classes and workshops, clergy training, gatherings/campouts, etc. I don't see that as unreasonable--if you don't like it, don't sign up for it. And its not like many instructors are unreasonable--they just want to recoup their expenses, make sure students are committed enough to make it worth their effort, and maybe even make a few dollars to put in the piggy bank for a rainy day (I've never managed this one, but hey, it could happen)...if someone has an honest intellectual/spirital drive/need and a serious financial hardship, its not unheard of to barter services in lieu of money for most stuff around here.

No one is forcing anyone to attend a workshop or whatever--if it meets your needs, and you value the potential information and activities enough to meet the demands of the instructor/leader, then you pay for it. If not, you don't pay for it and you don't go. Its really quite simple.

[Gardenia]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

Both you and Vigdisdotter make a valid point -- I do not know enough about Wicca to understand how it is structured but simply assumed that the laity would have some influence over the clergy who serve them. In protestantism, the minister can simply be removed by parishioners, voted off the island, if you will. If the behavior is bad enough s/he can be expelled from the denominational organization. I am having difficulty believing that any group is helpless before any single priest or priestess. Call some one else.

With Wicca in particular, each coven is usually autonomous. Some smaller traditions may be tighter, and hold all their members to a particular standard. Any single group could probably split from their high priest/priestess if there was some major issue - but it's not always as easy as calling someone else (there may not be anyone else), and there's no way to kick someone out of Wicca totally. However, a single group would also likely be more aware of the costs of running the group... Renting ritual space (if necessary), the cost of coven tools, food and drink for the ritual, and so on... no one member of the coven should be expected to just eat that cost.

All of that doesn't touch on solitary/eclectic Wiccans, of which there are tons. Any individual solitary doesn't get much say over what any particular high priest/ess or teacher does. Essentially, if they don't like the price tag, they're welcome to not buy services... but that's about it. Like I said much earlier in the thread, each individual has that right, to decide if X or Y is worth whatever amount of money. Yes, some people are out to scam, to overcharge... but a lot of people who charge are just trying to not lose money, and maybe make a little something for time spent. We, as a community, should not expect our teachers and leaders to not only put in time and effort into organizing classes and events, but also expect the to eat whatever fees come along. If one wants to join classes, or whatever, they should be ready to pay their fair share for it.

Outside of Wicca it's much the same. Many traditions are too big, with no central organization. Frankly, most of the pagan traditions that are more organized do charge fees at some point. Fees for membership, fees for lessons, fees for particular initiation rituals, fees for retreats and workshops, and so on. Again, it all just comes down to cost. Website costs, cost of building space, administration costs, costs of putting out newsletters or other print items, costs for group ritual objects and supplies, even cost for time in some cases. Many of these groups do understand that some people may be going through hard times, and run sliding scale fees, but not all groups are able to do that, or find it necessary (if their fees are already minimal in the first place.) Again, if an individual doesn't like it, they don't have to join up, and we should all be wary of scams - but I really don't think it makes sense to expect someone else to pay your way for you.

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

Both you and Vigdisdotter make a valid point -- I do not know enough about Wicca to understand how it is structured but simply assumed that the laity would have some influence over the clergy who serve them. In protestantism, the minister can simply be removed by parishioners, voted off the island, if you will. If the behavior is bad enough s/he can be expelled from the denominational organization. I am having difficulty believing that any group is helpless before any single priest or priestess. Call some one else.

That's not an example of enforcing their will. That's just social censor and any social ground CAN do that, but that doesn't mean it will be heeded or effective. It's not law. The members of a religion can't STOP the person from setting up shop. The best they can do is get the word out there that this person is to be avoided because ____________. And nothing says others WILL avoid them.

[ChainLightning]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

The best they can do is get the word out there that this person is to be avoided because ____________. And nothing says others WILL avoid them.

Not unlike yourself.

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

Not unlike yourself.

At least I'm on topic. Perhaps you'd like to join me? Or are you just going to follow me through threads making comments about my person?

[Juniper]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

At least I'm on topic. Perhaps you'd like to join me? Or are you just going to follow me through threads making comments about my person?

Actually, you've been a major contributor to three threads getting closed, today. Granted, this particular thread can't really get any worse since it's pretty much a dead horse that's just getting beaten to a pulp and therefore "on topic" is more or less irrelevant now.

[AL!CE]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

I've not yet seen a good reason to close a thread but it's not my call.

I believe in freedom of speech and the power to ignore people. I also enjoy witty banter and bitchery. Tho I try not to employ too much of it here.

In the closed threads I didn't notice anything that bad: One member was adopting a slightly obnoxious argumentative manner and a couple of others were goading her into worse. I suppose closing the threads early avoids the worse but it's very annoying to those of us who were still enjoying the actual topics.

[Juniper]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

You're right. It's not your call.

[ChainLightning]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

I suppose closing the threads early avoids the worse but it's very annoying to those of us who were still enjoying the actual topics.

Generally speaking, mods getting annoyed is far more of a concern. Not that we aim to annoy others but that we, at PF, try to make everyone feel welcome and seeing some member(s) chased off actually goes well beyond "annoyed mod". It's not harmless banter when someone gets hurt by it.

That's where I come in. If somebody is going to decry, berate or otherwise belittle others (or their beliefs), their remaining days are being counted.

That includes berating the staff.