Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Personal issues with Wicca.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #16
    Re: Personal issues with Wicca.

    Originally posted by Medusa View Post
    No no that makes sense. I removed myself from anything with the Church of Satan because I don't like where the in house politics was taking the religion. Most LaVayen Satanists are actually not members of the CoS. So I totally get looking for the true core of a religion. older Wiccans would def be the way to go in finding that.
    Ah, I've heard a bit about that mess. :P I get what you mean.
    This forum has already helped me in a lot of ways with that so far honestly. People here seem really very level headed for the most part. It's quite refreshing.

    selume proferre

    Comment


      #17
      Re: Personal issues with Wicca.

      Did you go for a Traditional Coven like alexandrian or gardinarian orchestrion or was it ecclectic witchcraft style wicca ala the farrars?

      Comment


        #18
        Re: Personal issues with Wicca.

        Originally posted by JamesByrne View Post
        Did you go for a Traditional Coven like alexandrian or gardinarian orchestrion or was it ecclectic witchcraft style wicca ala the farrars?
        I haven't found any covens actually. There's only one here that doesn't suit me at all. I probably would have different opinions if I talked to some traditional folks haha :P

        selume proferre

        Comment


          #19
          Re: Personal issues with Wicca.

          Id say so orchestrion. What is it that doesnt suit you about the local coven? Do you know what type of wiccans they are?

          Its trendy to use wicca as a foil to the way contemporary neopaganism legitimises itself but its not necessarily an accurate depiction of what wicca is. Its an initiatory tradition, so no one who isnt initiated knows what goes in in there. The stuff youre talking about is fairly standard hippy neowicca stuff that drives Trad wiccans up the wall too. Wicca is a reconstructed fertility cult based on early 20th century mythography (as well as all that theosophy, OTO etc..) so part of your outer court training will be 'serious' study (its not a BA) in history, comparative literature on top of the usual tarot, psychic development stuff.

          On the scale of seriousness compare what youve experienced to a gardinarian coven that might have a 2 year trial period before even accepting you as an initiate. Then a year between each initiation at least. Thats a fairly serious amount of time to study. You could do an MA in that space of time. Barring things like OTO, Thelema and the Golden Dawn that gave wicca its heirarchical structure youre not goin to find a form of neopaganism that has higher standards then trad wicca.

          Comment


            #20
            Re: Personal issues with Wicca.

            You might actually be interested in reading some BTW (British Traditional Witchcraft--Gardnerian and Alexandrian Witchcraft) info (there are a number of older covens that have history, theology, and philosophical essays and such on the web (no rituals though) or looking at one of the coven/initiation required established traditions. Pretty much Garners complete BoS is available on the web anyhow (via Sacred Texts) and between that and his other writings and the *early* books written by initiates of his, its not like you can't find out what's *really* up with Wicca---even traditional Wicca(the books by the Farrars are a good start, and there are some others that are pretty much the basic reading list for quite a few teaching covens). There are quite a few Wiccan groups that *don't* have the history problem (or its pretty minimal) that you are speaking of.

            Some Stuff to Check Out (that I think you might like, if you haven't run across it already):Exegesis on the Rede, An' it Harm None: High Choice Ethics, Do what you will: Best Choice Ethics, an essay on spiritual growth for solitaries, a bit about magical ethics, and advice on finding the right coven from Proteus Coven (a Gardnerian-lineaged offshoot)
            Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
            sigpic

            Comment


              #21
              Re: Personal issues with Wicca.

              Originally posted by thalassa View Post
              You might actually be interested in reading some BTW (British Traditional Witchcraft--Gardnerian and Alexandrian Witchcraft) info (there are a number of older covens that have history, theology, and philosophical essays and such on the web (no rituals though) or looking at one of the coven/initiation required established traditions. Pretty much Garners complete BoS is available on the web anyhow (via Sacred Texts) and between that and his other writings and the *early* books written by initiates of his, its not like you can't find out what's *really* up with Wicca---even traditional Wicca(the books by the Farrars are a good start, and there are some others that are pretty much the basic reading list for quite a few teaching covens). There are quite a few Wiccan groups that *don't* have the history problem (or its pretty minimal) that you are speaking of.

              Some Stuff to Check Out (that I think you might like, if you haven't run across it already):Exegesis on the Rede, An' it Harm None: High Choice Ethics, Do what you will: Best Choice Ethics, an essay on spiritual growth for solitaries, a bit about magical ethics, and advice on finding the right coven from Proteus Coven (a Gardnerian-lineaged offshoot)
              Oh wow! I'm looking at a witchvox article about BTW by a practitioner of it... it sounds wonderful! I'll have to look into it more but it sounds like it suits exactly what i was saying about the sense of valid fact and tradition. If i do decide on it the problem arises though that on my search for covens in the area and the few i found were not of more traditional wiccan paths and this is as you mentioned very initiate/tradition based. Unless I could find someone legit online which I'm wary of.

              Jamesbyrne, the coven I found was very nice but also very far and a little too far from various traditions for me, and a little white-lighty.

              - - - Updated - - -

              Also i'm having some trouble finding how british traditional folk handle queer people... I know most pagans i've come across are accepting but it's a big consideration for me.

              selume proferre

              Comment


                #22
                Re: Personal issues with Wicca.

                Originally posted by orchestrion View Post

                Also i'm having some trouble finding how british traditional folk handle queer people... I know most pagans i've come across are accepting but it's a big consideration for me.
                Id say youll find its down to the individual orchestrion like it is everywhere else but my local lexies have the longest serving High priestess apart from maxine sanders and a fair few of her downline are queer guys. The major issue Ive found when talking about trad wicca with people is the heteronormative roles in wiccas ritual liturgy. For example the oracular function in group ritual tends to be female calling down the moon for instance. Ive never had it explained to me but I trust the queer guys I know wont let themselves be walked on so it must be o.k.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Re: Personal issues with Wicca.

                  Originally posted by JamesByrne View Post
                  Id say youll find its down to the individual orchestrion like it is everywhere else but my local lexies have the longest serving High priestess apart from maxine sanders and a fair few of her downline are queer guys. The major issue Ive found when talking about trad wicca with people is the heteronormative roles in wiccas ritual liturgy. For example the oracular function in group ritual tends to be female calling down the moon for instance. Ive never had it explained to me but I trust the queer guys I know wont let themselves be walked on so it must be o.k.
                  This is helpful info.
                  I don't mind the heteronormativity so much because I like the balance it proposes and I get that it pertains to the issue of fertility.
                  Really as long as they weren't hypothetically going to give me a hard time about it I wouldn't mind haha. I would just want to set it aside and make sure I wasn't going to be treated differently for it. If they didn't really like it but didn't really make it an issue i'd be a reasonably happy camper. ;P

                  selume proferre

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Re: Personal issues with Wicca.

                    ugh white lighters lol

                    You cant be initiated online btw orchestrion, wiccan instruction takes place face to face. Youd be surprised whos around though if you network. There are lots of wiccans in Ireland who have 0 online presence and do not call themselves wiccans anymore so you wouldnt know. For example Ive found that lots of people who trained with gardner in the mill on the isle of mann became fairy doctors, the mannish version of witches. Coven or not a lineaged HP/S can initiate you. So you never know, moots are the way to network when youre a seeker.
                    Last edited by JamesByrne; 05 Jul 2012, 19:30. Reason: gardner at the mill not sanders... doh

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Re: Personal issues with Wicca.

                      Originally posted by JamesByrne View Post
                      ugh white lighters lol

                      You cant be initiated online btw orchestrion, wiccan instruction takes place face to face. Youd be surprised whos around though if you network. There are lots of wiccans in Ireland who have 0 online presence and do not call themselves wiccans anymore so you wouldnt know. For example Ive found that lots of people who trained with gardner in the mill on the isle of mann became fairy doctors, the mannish version of witches. Coven or not a lineaged HP/S can initiate you. So you never know, moots are the way to network when youre a seeker.
                      I'm really glad it's face to face actually. I'd much prefer that. :P
                      I actually found some folks in the area now that I've narrowed my search. Still a bit of a ways away, an hour bus ride, but a least the bus actually goes there :P you never know around here.
                      If nothing else it's nice to know there are serious wiccans in the area.

                      selume proferre

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Re: Personal issues with Wicca.

                        Aha- I've emailed two traditional covens in the area to ask a few questions and whatnot. (None invasive of rituals or anything). I for some reason always dismissed traditional Gardnerian Wicca as an option, possibly associating it more with the false information out there for some reason, but upon looking into this more I'm really happy you folks pointed me in this direction.

                        selume proferre

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Re: Personal issues with Wicca.

                          Cool Im glad youre rocking along so well and I could be helpfull. Thats my good deed done for the week so. Time for nefarious weekend deeds

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Re: Personal issues with Wicca.

                            Originally posted by JamesByrne View Post
                            Cool Im glad youre rocking along so well and I could be helpfull. Thats my good deed done for the week so. Time for nefarious weekend deeds
                            The nefarious ones are more fun. XD

                            selume proferre

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Re: Personal issues with Wicca.

                              I've just recently come back to contemporary Paganism as a whole and Wicca is something I am finding really working for me right now. I'm a huge history buff as well (part of my degree was in French history in particular) and I'm a huge skeptic as it is, but the historical faults of Wicca just don't seem to bother me. Sure Gardner lied. Valiente lied. Sanders lied. Murray lied. There was no witch-cult. There was no great-white-prehistoric-boobydoll-matriarchy-Minoan-paradise. It's all bunk. I look at all that and for some reason...I just shrug. Look, I don't find a lot of people who self-identify as Wiccan believing this stuff anymore as it is (well, there are quite a few stragglers on the prehistoric matriarchy myth, but so be it).

                              What I think Gardner and the early Wiccan movement did was give us a language. They gave us a sort of toolkit. I find it odd that so many in the contemporary Pagan community are willing to scoff at Wiccan duotheism while they are espousing a pantheistic Godhead view similar to Hindu concepts of Brahman and somewhat foreign to most pre-Christian Pagan cultures with the rare exception of certain philosophical branches of Paganism like Pythagoras, Julian, and Aristotle. The recons may hate Wiccans for "skewing" divinity, but many contemporary Pagans have views of deity radically different from what we know about a lot of Pagan cultures and should give hard recon polytheists room to pause as well.

                              Sure the history is bogus, but that's true of most religions. Do most of these educated West Coast American Buddhists actually believe that the Buddha was born from his mother's side? Or that he could walk and talk at birth? Or that Mara literally tempted him? No. It's religious saga; it's foundational myth. Theirs is older...it doesn't make it "truer" than Wiccan foundational myths. Wicca gives us a wonderful ritual structure (circle casting is something I find so beautiful) and great symbolism (the triple Goddess, the Horned God [probably a pure invention], athames, etc.). And at the end of the day it is about what speaks to you. Wiccan concepts speak to me a lot. When I cast a circle in the traditional Wiccan way or think about the dualistic concept of divinity I feel comfortable and peaceful. When I look into strict recon faiths or the more philosophized and abstract Paganism...I feel like I'm running into a wall. It just doesn't work that well for me. That's not to say they aren't wonderful paths for people who feel called to them, just that Wicca...hits the spot.

                              I agree with the other posters about looking into BTW covens. I will say that the Gardnerian covens I have looked into that are available in my region are very strict about skyclad practices. I have a friend who tried to ask not to be a part of this and the lineaged coven she was looking into said absolutely not. Skyclad or nothing. Alexandrian covens (from what I've researched) make this optional. I know it's a silly thing to some, but for me it would be a deal-breaker. I'm not getting naked. Period. So if you're like me and don't want that, then I would ask.

                              Otherwise, don't let the history issues get ya down. If Wicca speaks to you then work with it. Hell, my liberal Christian friends might get red faced over screeching homophobic Evangelicals but they don't let that poison their own path. Every religion is going to have issues.

                              tl;dr...I need to be more concise.
                              Last edited by Witcher; 14 Jul 2012, 01:05.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Re: Personal issues with Wicca.

                                Being Eclectic has personally worked for me so far. There have been times when I've been frustrated with being Wiccan and wondered if it's right for me, but I have to remember that no two people, even within the same religion, ever have the exact same idea of what it is to be whatever they are. Everyone is on their own path, really, we all just follow guidelines. We are all free to accept and dismiss whatever we like... That's the way I look at it... The individual people within a religion can be very frustrating. ANY religion. The chances of you finding a religion that fits you perfectly are slim. The best thing to do is realize that the only views that matter are your own... They are the ones that influence your life. I, personally, knew that Wicca was the closest thing to what I believe in, but it wasn't exact. And I knew nothing else was ever going to be, so I stuck the Eclectic in there and have since explored my own beliefs under my Lord and Lady and the general guidelines ​of my Wiccan religion.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X