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    "I'm not a Wiccan, but..."

    Hi! I'm new here. My question is: Has anybody else noticed that there seems to be a trend of rejecting the label of "Wiccan," even among people who follow a Wiccan-ish system, like casting circles using the four elements, celebrating the eight sabbats, and seeing deity as the dual God and Goddess.

    I think it's strange that the term has been rejected. Some people follow different traditions of Witchcraft that have different lineages than Wicca, like Feri and Dianic traditions. They may have a lot of Wiccan influence and are similar in ritual style (circles, four quarters, eight sabbats), they don't descend from Gardner.

    Let's talk about it. Why is there such a trend to reject the Wiccan label, even among witchy people who follow a very Wiccanish system?

    #2
    Re: "I'm not a Wiccan, but..."

    It's not really strange if one rejects basic tenets of Wicca. I describe myself as a witch and not a wiccan because I don't follow or accept the Wiccan Rede. And to be honest that is pretty fundamental.

    As for using the elements.... this is not unique to wicca. As I am getting older I am tending more towards Ficino's system of elements anyway.
    I don't believe you have to be Wiccan in order to be a witch although I suspect there will be some who disagree.
    www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


    Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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      #3
      Re: "I'm not a Wiccan, but..."

      Originally posted by windywoman View Post
      Hi! I'm new here. My question is: Has anybody else noticed that there seems to be a trend of rejecting the label of "Wiccan," even among people who follow a Wiccan-ish system, like casting circles using the four elements, celebrating the eight sabbats, and seeing deity as the dual God and Goddess.
      I think it depends on how far one takes this... For example, there are plenty of people who do follow a Wiccan influenced path, but have rejected enough of the core concepts/beliefs/practices of Wicca that they're just no longer Wiccan, and I think that's a fair distinction to want to make.

      That said, I have met a growing number of people who will say they're not Wiccan, but then list off the list off... well, everything Wiccan. Like, I can't see any difference between what they're doing, and what is usually considered Wicca. On the other end of that, there are a whole host of people following a vaguely Wiccan-ish but not really Wiccan path, who do call it Wicca, which I think just adds to the misunderstanding of what Wicca actually consists of. Perhaps that confusion is where some of the "I'm not Wiccan (but I'm Wiccan)" business comes from, there are so many conflicting views out there on what makes Wicca what it is, maybe they're thinking it's just not worth the hassle. I know in two cases, they believed that initiation was required to truly be Wiccan, as it's the only way to experience the Wiccan mysteries, which they consider core to the religion. I could see where they were coming from, and initiation is still one of those topics that's hotly debated - which may be another reason some people move away from that label. Finally, I think some of them just want to get away from the fluffy-Wiccan types, not knowing there's something deeper to Wicca, or just not wanting those associations... In the end, I imagine the reasons vary a lot from person to person.
      Hearth and Hedge

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        #4
        Re: "I'm not a Wiccan, but..."

        I didn't really reject Wicca, I just stopped being Wiccan. The Sabbats with their integral link to the seasons & planting lost meaning to me. The use of ritual tools in magic became more of a waste of money and I'd find myself not doing things because I was out of this oil or that candle or it wasn't the right time of the year. I'm a hard polytheist, and I don't see the Gods as aspects or facets of a singular God and Goddess. The Wiccan Rede became too much of a ... well, I can't say it's hypocritical because those who follow it do seem to try their best to stick to it, but I found the philosophy to be more harmful to myself than helpful, and if you're harming yourself in the name of your religion, it's no healthier than purposefully harming everyone around you. I also seemed to find that Wiccan teachings and teachers never got beyond Wicca-for-beginners, and many practitioners I met sort of stopped at that level. They never asked themselves the 'hard' questions of morals, ethics, community responsibility, that kind of thing. In other words, I sort of grew out of it.

        I think of Wicca as 'Paganism 101' - it gives people a friendly, easy-to-use format for developing their own spirituality, but it can seem a bit shallow at times.
        The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

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          #5
          Re: "I'm not a Wiccan, but..."

          I began as Wiccan but I think it was more of a starting point for me and I think I've been going away from it because it feels too...modern for me. I always look for I guess the "original" in everything so I've become more interested in older paths that influenced Wicca. Although maybe once I've learned more about those I'll obtain a greater appreciation for Wicca and go back to it, I'm not sure though, for now I'm just a wanderer.

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            #6
            Re: "I'm not a Wiccan, but..."

            I disagree with, ignore or just don't care one way or another about too much of what I consider to be integral to Wicca.

            Now, I also refuse the title Pagan and that's a harder case to make with just how fracking expansive the term is these days but it implies (to me at least) views that I don't necessarily agree with and doesn't actually confer any obvious bonus over calling myself a Jedi or a whackjob (depends on my mood). Since the latter titles are significantly more fun, I use the descriptors that even when innacurate will still entertain me.
            life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

            Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

            "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

            John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

            "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

            Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


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              #7
              Re: "I'm not a Wiccan, but..."

              From a contemporary anthropological perspective, the New Age movement, revival of Neo-Paganism, the development of Wicca, and the rise of the Eclectic is still so new (relative to established, classical religious and spiritual traditions) that these things are still being defined. I have a system of theological and spiritual belief and practice that, at first glance, resembles Wicca in a very broad sense. Major points of contention? I do not believe in a transcendent and (forgive my choice of words) loosely-defined God and Goddess aspect in my definition of deity. My god is very definitively the Abrahamic Trinitarian God familiar to Christianity. My goddess is very much defined as the Avatar of the Gnostic conception of Sophia in the historical (or ahistorical depending on how you look at it) person of the Virgin Mary. These things are not fluid for me. Artemis, Freya, Ishtar, Isis, etc. are not synonymous with my definition of the female divine. Though I would only do things in my practice as well as I am able that do not harm others, my moral system is not derived from a simple maxim such as the Wiccan Rede. It is a moral code derived from the Scriptures I hold to be divinely inspired and from Sacred Tradition relevant to my faith tradition in ancient and contemporary Collyridianism. I am not a Wiccan, and I would take umbrage (and have) with people who would call it such, just as a Wiccan would (and should) take offense if I applied the term to myself. The problem is inherently the lack of establishment within these traditions. Given time, the misapplication will lessen and people will have a greater definition of what Wicca is. But just like with early Christianity when there were hundreds of sects calling themselves Christians based on a loose definition of what that meant, it will just take time for Wicca and other similar traditions to hammer out their definitions and disseminate said definitions through society.

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                #8
                Re: "I'm not a Wiccan, but..."

                A lot of people start with Wicca and grow apart from it over time. I would say for many people it's just a starting point because it's one of the most widely known Pagan religions.
                Also, Wicca is a religion that's more widely (and falsely, of course) thought of as being Satanic. Especially amongst Christians. I wonder if perhaps the reason that distinction is made often is to convince people that they are not Satanists. Satanism, of course, being another widely misunderstood path. I think it's a lot of misunderstanding and people want to make sure that other's understand them properly.
                On top of that, a lot of people sometimes see a Wiccan lifestyle as being pretty unrealistic. People will argue that the Rede is ridiculous because it's impossible to truly harm none. Personally, being an Eclectic Wiccan myself, I choose to look at it as the ideal way to live. I strive to follow the Rede, but recognize that I won't be perfect. And I'm not afraid to defend myself, unlike some Wiccans who won't even perform return Spells. I just don't think the Lord and Lady are going to be angry if I just take care of myself... The reason I left Christianity was because of the angry God attitude. To make everything more complicated, I think with Wiccans more than a lot of other forms of Paganism, you get the Pagan version of the "holier than thou" attitude.
                Sort of like, Oh... You aren't a Wiccan? You don't follow the Rede? Pity.
                But it's certainly unique to the individual.

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                  #9
                  Re: "I'm not a Wiccan, but..."

                  Originally posted by Zephyranth View Post
                  People will argue that the Rede is ridiculous because it's impossible to truly harm none.
                  The thing is, the Rede doesn't say "harm none." I don't understand why so many (Wiccan and non-Wiccan alike) try to cut the Rede down to those two words, because I think doing that alters the message of the Rede. Looking at it without cutting out the words around "harm none," it actually says if it doesn't cause harm, go for it. In my mind, that isn't the same thing as telling someone to never cause harm (which would be awful advice, because as you note, that is impossible).

                  Wiccans more than a lot of other forms of Paganism, you get the Pagan version of the "holier than thou" attitude.
                  Sort of like, Oh... You aren't a Wiccan? You don't follow the Rede? Pity.
                  I get this a lot. Like... You're a witch, but you don't follow the Rede? Wow. You're a bad witch. (Or evil, selfish, dangerous... take your pick.) You're doing it wrong.
                  That's one of the reasons I try to make it clear that I'm not a Wiccan (and that not all witches are) - but I also don't follow most Wiccan practices, unlike the example in the OP, but a lot of Wiccans assume I do even when I stress the non-Wiccan part...
                  Hearth and Hedge

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                    #10
                    Re: "I'm not a Wiccan, but..."

                    Originally posted by Gardenia View Post
                    The thing is, the Rede doesn't say "harm none." I don't understand why so many (Wiccan and non-Wiccan alike) try to cut the Rede down to those two words, because I think doing that alters the message of the Rede. Looking at it without cutting out the words around "harm none," it actually says if it doesn't cause harm, go for it. In my mind, that isn't the same thing as telling someone to never cause harm (which would be awful advice, because as you note, that is impossible).



                    I get this a lot. Like... You're a witch, but you don't follow the Rede? Wow. You're a bad witch. (Or evil, selfish, dangerous... take your pick.) You're doing it wrong.
                    That's one of the reasons I try to make it clear that I'm not a Wiccan (and that not all witches are) - but I also don't follow most Wiccan practices, unlike the example in the OP, but a lot of Wiccans assume I do even when I stress the non-Wiccan part...
                    Wicca is definitely one of the Pagan religions that has the most problems. But this is just because it's one of the most well known, so it attracts all kinds of people and some of them are different than others. I'm Eclectic because I like the fact that I can tweak little things there and there and make it my own. Overall, I would consider myself Wiccan, but I try not to be like some of the more extreme examples. Of course, there are extremists in every religion. I think though that the best thing to do is avoid generalizations. Just because of the fact that that's one of the major reasons that a lot of people become Pagan... To be able to make their own way and be their own. Funny how it's hard not to be a hypocrite! Human nature.

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                      #11
                      Re: "I'm not a Wiccan, but..."

                      My beliefs evolved away from it and I think this is what happens to some people who
                      I still go by the meaning of the Rede and some of the Wiccan principles.
                      It was just the matter of beliefs changing.
                      Over time some people's minds open up to new things and ideas and they drift away
                      from what they once thought.
                      "The fire could not be tamed with the wind,
                      nor the wind suppressed by the flames.
                      As blending the Light with the Dark
                      merely results in Grey." -Ville Friman

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                        #12
                        Re: "I'm not a Wiccan, but..."

                        Originally posted by Zephyranth View Post
                        Wicca is definitely one of the Pagan religions that has the most problems. But this is just because it's one of the most well known, so it attracts all kinds of people and some of them are different than others. I'm Eclectic because I like the fact that I can tweak little things there and there and make it my own. Overall, I would consider myself Wiccan, but I try not to be like some of the more extreme examples. Of course, there are extremists in every religion. I think though that the best thing to do is avoid generalizations. Just because of the fact that that's one of the major reasons that a lot of people become Pagan... To be able to make their own way and be their own. Funny how it's hard not to be a hypocrite! Human nature.
                        The point about Wicca's problems being talked over because of Wicca's popularity is an excellent point. Asatru, Heathenry, Norse Paganism or other various paths linked to those are saddled with a very nasty racist history including groups from both Germany and France. I think one of the reason Asatruar have dealt with this better than Wiccans is because Asatru never saw the commercialization that Wicca did. Asatruar had the ability to deal with this on an "in-house" basis and fight against those racist trends and quite aggressively and valiantly I might add. Wicca was hijacked by pop culture and therefore has a MUCH harder time trying to deal with foibles and screw-ups.

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                          #13
                          Re: "I'm not a Wiccan, but..."

                          Originally posted by windywoman View Post


                          Let's talk about it.
                          Yes, let's.... um, where are you windywoman?
                          www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                          Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: "I'm not a Wiccan, but..."

                            Originally posted by Witcher View Post
                            The point about Wicca's problems being talked over because of Wicca's popularity is an excellent point. Asatru, Heathenry, Norse Paganism or other various paths linked to those are saddled with a very nasty racist history including groups from both Germany and France. I think one of the reason Asatruar have dealt with this better than Wiccans is because Asatru never saw the commercialization that Wicca did. Asatruar had the ability to deal with this on an "in-house" basis and fight against those racist trends and quite aggressively and valiantly I might add. Wicca was hijacked by pop culture and therefore has a MUCH harder time trying to deal with foibles and screw-ups.
                            I completely agree with that... Wicca has all kinds of people who participate. For example, a girl I used to be really close to followed me into Wicca, and then started using it to get guys and make herself seem sexy. She never practiced, but would still get after me for being a 'bad Wiccan' if I would ever so much as think one negative thought. People like that drive me absolutely crazy. They don't even understand their own religion.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: "I'm not a Wiccan, but..."

                              Originally posted by Zephyranth View Post
                              I completely agree with that... Wicca has all kinds of people who participate. For example, a girl I used to be really close to followed me into Wicca, and then started using it to get guys and make herself seem sexy. She never practiced, but would still get after me for being a 'bad Wiccan' if I would ever so much as think one negative thought. People like that drive me absolutely crazy. They don't even understand their own religion.
                              This tendency would be a lot easier to fight against if, culturally, the West would get over its insistence that offending people is not OK, because then those who wanted to stop the commercialized dissemination and dilution of Wicca would be able to stand up and say "Stop it."

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