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Thread: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

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    Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

    After seeing that Paul Ryan will be running for vice president I searched for information on Ayn rand as Ryan seems to have based his political and moral philosophical ideas on her. Below is some insight as to what Ayn Rand proposed.

    http://www.alternet.org/story/149721...he_needed_them

    While I do understand the needs of the people to have freedom,I have trouble with Rand's concept of how government should work. See quote below.

    "[She] called altruism a “basic evil” and referred to those who perpetuate the system of taxation and redistribution as “looters” and “moochers.” She wrote in her book “The Virtue of Selfishness” that accepting any government controls is “delivering oneself into gradual enslavement.”

    This seems to be the base of the Republicans "Conservative" dream and this becomes the major factor that will drive this election. Even if Obama doesn't achieve everything we wish he would,that is still better than a world based on the ideas of Ayn Rand.

    Feel free to jump in and discuss your ideas on the matter. This election could be the world changing "Perfect storm" as far as the direction our country will go in the near future and in my mind it "Could" bring about a real "Class war" if the needs of the poor and the people find no aid in hard times. Revolution has been sparked by far less, and in this country there are already many militant groups that might jump at the chance to turn the vast dissatisfied masses into turning to violence as a way to express their anger. Violence is never a solution and would only end in destruction and disorder. I am sad to see my country approach such a possibility,and I do hope for a better world,where helping and caring are nor rejected for the absolute dog eat dog vision that the right seems to think is a better vision for our country.
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    Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

    This pic pretty much says it all, for me:



    And this article is also quite good:

    Ayn Rand and the Sociopathic Society or ‘How I Learned to Stop Loving My Neighbor and Despise Them Instead.’

    Ayn Rand’s specific worldview was that “The pursuit of his (man’s) own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life.”[i] This is in direct opposition to a functional humane society where the whole must be cohesive in order to provide for its weakest and most vulnerable. You’ll notice my inclusion of the word “humane”. You can have a perfectly functional society without a shred of humanity in it. Take, for example, the Industrial Age societies. They literally built the foundations for the world we know and yet they allowed or even encouraged child labor; essentially the slavery of children. Speaking of slavery, they had THAT, too, and no matter what Haley Barbour, Pat Buchanan and the other apologists revisionists would have you think, it was horrible and inhumane.
    Last edited by cesara; 12 Aug 2012 at 09:40.
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    Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

    Okay, that link doesn't really explain Ayn Rand's ideas... It's more an attack on her as a person.

    When Rand, or really any philosopher worth their salt, mentions altruism they are refering to the philosophical position that a person is morally obligated to live in service of others. In other words, altruism is the idea that the only good is good for others, that good for one's self either didn't exist, was dependant on others as well, or was an evil.

    Taxation is fundamentally altruistic, it holds that all people of a country (barring certain exceptions) are REQUIRED to give a portion of their money "for the greater good." You can't opt out, and indeed are labelled a criminal if you do so.

    Not only that, but in our current political climate the poor are especially burdened by taxation. They can't afford offshore accounts, personal accountants, or slush funds. They also feel the dip in their money a whole hell of a lot more than their richer countrymen.

    Even if I was in favour of taxing, the country is doing it ass backwards!

    Objectivist ethics is actualy pretty simple. The greater good is NOT the responcibility of an individual, at least not by his or her self. The only good that matters to an individual is that which facilitates their life and happiness.

    The only evils are force, fraud and coercion.

    That is the reason Objectivism is against taxation, it is the use of force and coercion to facilitate state sanctioned altruism.

    I would be all for tax, so long as you could opt in or out if you wished. Supporting our country and the people therein is good, it would be stupid not to. The important thing is that it would be my CHOICE to do so.

    Rand didn't believe in a dog eat dog world, she was actually rather idealistic. She believed that one persons happiness did NOT have to come at the expense of others. That men and women were generally and genuinely decent.

    Wikipedia.org: Objectivism (Ayn_Rand)

    Useful notes: Objectivism

    Wikipedia: Ayn Rand

    TvTropes: Ayn Rand

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    Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

    If you want to be able to opt in/out of taxes, that would be fine if, in response, you would have to opt in/out of any social structures that were built with said taxes, ie: bridges, roads, police/fire response. Don't want to pay taxes? That's fine. But you then don't have access to transport your products off of your property nor the protection from theft and fire. It must work both ways.

    Ayn's world would work just fine if it were actually the case that the poor were just lazy buggers. Truth is, the majority simply lack privleged positions in society and don't have the means that those 'with', have.

    If only the poor really WERE lazy....sigh.
    Last edited by cesara; 12 Aug 2012 at 10:17.
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    Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

    Roads and bridges are open to public use, not just tax payers. Vistors to our country don't have to worry about that. As for the police and fire, I actually agree on principle but not in practice. If It was just an indvidual concern you would be absolutely right, but criminals and fires are a danger to EVERYBODY not just an individual.

    As for the poor, and Ayn Rand's personal view of them: Doesn't matter. The Objectivist view is that a person should be responcible for themselves. However, things like inequality and the economic situation make it difficult or even impossible for some people to facilitate their lives and happiness.

    It's an unfortunate fact of life. However, things like charitable organizations and government sponsored work programs are in everyone's best interest. The poor themselves, as well as society at large.
    Last edited by Denarius; 12 Aug 2012 at 10:26.

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    Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

    Huh? Taxes pay for infrastructure. How exactly should a society pay for infrastrucutre, then? Are you saying everyone should pay taxes to support infrastructure?

    So, there ARE some instances where 'the greater good' (read: danger to EVERYBODY) is relevant. (fire, police etc.) I agree. Hmm. So, how would it work, then? People can pick and choose what they feel affects EVERYBODY and pay taxes accordingly?

    Again, I would love to be able to opt out of taxes.....and it would be nice to be able to pick and choose what 'greater good' concepts I could opt in/out of.....like, say, being able to opt out of taxes that pay for war.....I like that idea, but as you say, it doesn't pan out very well, in reality.
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    Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

    Yes, everyone should be paying taxes. Entirely of their own free will and without being forced to do so, however without force not everyone will do so. A quandry. Then again, even WITH force not everyone does so.

    Infrastructure should be paid for by society, through charity, voluntary tax, and things like tolls. If you want to help fund something, you should be able to do so directly. I would be absolutely willing to give a portion of my revenue to public funds, sometimes it wouldn't be much, other times it would be relatively generous. It depends on how much I can afford and how charitable I am feeling.

    The greater good is not wholly irrelevent, just not the main concern or responciblilty of the individual. Our own well being is our greatest responcibility, however not taking into account society and things greater than ourselves is woefully shortsighted and ultimately not in our best interest.

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    Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

    As I see things,we are in a Technology revolution,More and more factory's are using robots. Many jobs have gone away forever.
    You can't sell your goods if no one is left working. My thoughts may go like this,since I can't work,I will become a farmer,and as is happening some places the Barter system (trading your skill for food or for other services) these systems though small and generally local,might end up how things are done more and more. So imagine that this "Barter" system becomes the new norm,Money as we now have it would become perhaps less welcome. The system of barter does create what could be considered "Money" a paper that says you have this many barter points. Since it is not "Real" money as defined by the powers that be,it is not taxable. I might envision a future where "Real" money has NO worth,if those that grow food would not accept in trade. Consider the VERY rich,that have LOTS of "Real" money who go to the farmer and want to buy food,and the farmer says,that green paper is not barter points and is worthless to me. Then the farmer says to the rich person "If you could repair my tractor,I would consider that a fair trade and give you food for your efforts" The rich person however has always considered their ability to make money by trading or manipulating stocks and bonds worth more than practical WORK that actually produces something the farmer can use,and perhaps trade for other things. The rich persons skills are worthless in that system,and he starves unless someone takes pity on his condition(then concern for others well being BECOMES VERY important to the rich person) Society really knows that not caring about others is a negative path,that will come back to bite their A** In the beginning many(cave man days) one might kill another to take their food,but we evolved into a society where we learned that it was better to work together as you mentioned "For the greater good" Some say that these moral aspects are derived from religion,but I think they are some peoples nature to care about others. I think it is the part of ourselves that knows that we can not exist alone. Humans are the "Smartest" animals on this planet,but sometimes we have the stupidest ideas that end up putting all of us in jeopardy. All in all I sometimes think it will be a Miracle that we don't end up wiping ourselves from existence. Just my take and my 2 cents,I am to old to concern myself,I have perhaps 10 years left(I am 66) good luck,and remember to carry your towel with you,and the answer is 46
    MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

    all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
    NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
    don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




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    my new page here,let me know what you think.


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    Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

    Ayn Rand's philosophy is based on a glaring inaccuracy - that the average human has the foresight to see how their actions will affect themselves, others, and society in the long run and that they will act on that non-existent foresight. All of her novels are about how people fail to do this, and she said that her novels should act as warnings, but she continued to preach a philosophy based upon logic that she indirectly warned was flawed.
    "Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children." - Khalil Gibran

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    Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

    Actually, Objectivism holds that the IDEAL is to understand how our actions affect ourselevs, others, and society in the long run. However, no one has that kind of foresight. Not Objectivists, not Totalitarians, not anybody.

    The best we can do is what we think is best, and that will have to do. Objectivism just holds that what we think is best for ourselves should be the immediate priority, and if that is also good for others then that's awesome. It's a fortunate bonus.

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