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Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

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    #31
    Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

    It is perfectly logical for her to both rail against and take advantage of government programs.

    Where is the self interest in making yourself a martyr? She believed that an individual could be strong enough to stand on their own, in the end she wasn't able to. That made her human, less than her ideal. It did not make her a hypocrite.

    Originally posted by AzazelEblis View Post
    A selfish desire to take advantage, without giving back.
    You say that as if it's a bad thing. That is about the least charitable sentence I've ever seen. Darn, there I go emplying that charity is a good thing.
    Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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      #32
      Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

      wasn't her excuse something along the lines that she'd paid her taxes and so was entitled to state care?

      that's hypocrisy in my book.

      who do Ayn Rand supporters rely on in times of war or when they need the police or infrastructure anyway?

      Comment

        #33
        Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

        Originally posted by westwoden View Post
        who do Ayn Rand supporters rely on in times of war or when they need the police or infrastructure anyway?
        The police and infrastructure, duh. Blood money is better than no money.

        As I have said before: In Objectivism the only good is that which facilitates your own life and happiness, and the only evils are force, fraud, and coercion.

        Taxation is bad because it involves force and coercion, utilising the resource provided by such is good because it facilitiates your life and happiness.
        Last edited by Denarius; 28 Nov 2012, 03:29.
        Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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          #34
          Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

          so you rely on an oxymoron here - that is hardly credible in my book.

          No tax = no police,army or infrastructure.

          so who will pay for it?

          Comment

            #35
            Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

            Read the first three posts I made on this thread, I've already suffeciently adressed that subject.

            Public funding is a necessity, taxation is a morally and practically unsound method of attaining such.
            Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

            Comment

              #36
              Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

              so I take it you are against paying tax, unless voluntary?

              Comment

                #37
                Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

                Originally posted by Denarius View Post
                It is perfectly logical for her to both rail against and take advantage of government programs.

                Where is the self interest in making yourself a martyr? She believed that an individual could be strong enough to stand on their own, in the end she wasn't able to. That made her human, less than her ideal. It did not make her a hypocrite.



                You say that as if it's a bad thing. That is about the least charitable sentence I've ever seen. Darn, there I go emplying that charity is a good thing.
                Here's the thing - the poor tend to actually give. There's an entire system of give and take, and of reciprocity inherent in that charity.

                And Ayn Rand saw that as "weakness". Well, what happens when all those "weak" people suddenly stop giving? Quite literally, society breaks down. And her ideas are helping to push it right along.

                So yes, I'm going to both relish and despise her hypocrisy. It strokes that same cluster of nerves as a Disney-like fairy - complete with a happy a ending where the villian faces karmic justice.

                - - - Updated - - -

                Originally posted by Denarius View Post
                Public funding is a necessity, taxation is a morally and practically unsound method of attaining such.
                Sooo, taxation at all is amoral? Tariffs, sales tax, property tax, income tax, the whole deal?

                Now, where on earth could we find an analagous service... I know! ATM transfers. The bank has built the infrastructure to give you convenient access to your money. But they don't do that for free - they've got fees.

                So it is with roads, and sales taxes. So it is with public education, so that your teller can read your check.

                If you want nice things, you're gonna have to throw in for them. And there are some things where opting out is thoroughly impossible, impractical, self-destructive, and even corrosive to the entire structure that the rest of us depend upon.

                So... I'm left asking "how"? How would you attempt to fund those things?
                "A true initiation never ends"-Robert Anton Wilson
                http://www.hermetic.com/crowley
                "Reality has become a commodity"-Stephen Colbert 1/29/07
                http://www.chaosmatrix.org/
                "Sometimes, when you can't breathe, there are people there to breathe for you" - Aesop Rock
                http://upholdingmaat.wordpress.com

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                  #38
                  Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

                  Originally posted by Denarius View Post
                  Read the first three posts I made on this thread, I've already suffeciently adressed that subject.

                  Public funding is a necessity, taxation is a morally and practically unsound method of attaining such.
                  This whole statement smacks of foolishness and naivety. Without taxes it makes no sense that infrastructure could exist at all, without taxation in some form, police dont get paid, so no one saves you from the serial rapist. There is no justice system and everything breaks down. No one volunteers to pay adequate taxes... not unless maybe they are trying to run for president and want to look good. It just does not happen.
                  http://catcrowsnow.blogspot.com/

                  But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness.... Which could obviously only be redeemed by passing through the fiery inferno of my digestive tract.
                  ~Jim Butcher

                  Comment

                    #39
                    Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

                    Originally posted by AzazelEblis View Post
                    Now, where on earth could we find an analagous service... I know! ATM transfers. The bank has built the infrastructure to give you convenient access to your money. But they don't do that for free - they've got fees.
                    And that's great. I understand that that is the price, and I am not forced to partake in that service.

                    If you want nice things, you're gonna have to throw in for them. And there are some things where opting out is thoroughly impossible, impractical, self-destructive, and even corrosive to the entire structure that the rest of us depend upon.

                    So... I'm left asking "how"? How would you attempt to fund those things?
                    Government services should be paid for out of pocket. Roads and bridges should be tolled. People should be able to pay into public funds directly, if they want nice things they are going to have to "throw in for it."

                    Originally posted by Maria de Luna View Post
                    No one volunteers to pay adequate taxes... not unless maybe they are trying to run for president and want to look good. It just does not happen.
                    Are you honestly saying that you wouldn't chip in if such a situation came to pass? For someone so worried about police being paid, you sure don't sound too willing to help out if given the chance.
                    Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

                    Comment

                      #40
                      Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

                      Originally posted by Denarius View Post


                      Are you honestly saying that you wouldn't chip in if such a situation came to pass? For someone so worried about police being paid, you sure don't sound too willing to help out if given the chance.
                      What you don't seem to realize is that people are not nessecarily good, they are inherently people... If I gave all my freaking paycheck to the government it would buy squat... I am not the person to try telling that I am unwilling to volunteer believe me. I have been part of the human race for too long to believe that the people who can contribute in the most meaningful way would. Because they don't except with the coercion you mention, ie law.... Laws make society function without breaking down into nothing, people are chaos, and if allowed to descend into it without adequate education and social structure, they will. You imply you want an idealistic society where no one has to contribute to be protected by it.... It does not work! It's awesome you would rather have the choice to pay taxes, and if given said choice that you would. But do you honestly feel like every human is going to bother educating themselves sufficiently to believe the same way? Because they don't...
                      http://catcrowsnow.blogspot.com/

                      But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness.... Which could obviously only be redeemed by passing through the fiery inferno of my digestive tract.
                      ~Jim Butcher

                      Comment

                        #41
                        Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

                        A society where everyone contributes and everyone is protected would be my ideal. I believe that people would chip in, if their choice was paying a toll to drive their car over a bridge or swimming across. (Or any number of other such situations.)
                        Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

                        Comment

                          #42
                          Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

                          Originally posted by Denarius View Post
                          A society where everyone contributes and everyone is protected would be my ideal. I believe that people would chip in, if their choice was paying a toll to drive their car over a bridge or swimming across. (Or any number of other such situations.)
                          Go for a little while to a country without a stable governmental tax system and tell me what idealism you find there...
                          http://catcrowsnow.blogspot.com/

                          But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness.... Which could obviously only be redeemed by passing through the fiery inferno of my digestive tract.
                          ~Jim Butcher

                          Comment

                            #43
                            Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

                            Okay, but it has to actually have a stable government. Otherwise that would be a pointless endeavour, regardless of its tax system.
                            Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

                            Comment

                              #44
                              Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

                              Originally posted by Denarius View Post
                              Okay, but it has to actually have a stable government. Otherwise that would be a pointless endeavour, regardless of its tax system.
                              That's the point there is no country without a tax system that has a stable government, it's a pipe dream!
                              http://catcrowsnow.blogspot.com/

                              But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness.... Which could obviously only be redeemed by passing through the fiery inferno of my digestive tract.
                              ~Jim Butcher

                              Comment

                                #45
                                Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

                                Just because something doesn't exist now, doesn't mean it's impossible. That just means that it has yet to be actualized.
                                Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

                                Comment

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