Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

[Maria de Luna]

Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

If it was viable someone would have tried it.

[Denarius]

Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

Or it's difficult, and people have yet to be suficiently motivated.

[AzazelEblis]

Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

And that's great. I understand that that is the price, and I am not forced to partake in that service.

The difference is, that you don't *have* to use an atm. Roads? Yeah, good luck not using those.

Government services should be paid for out of pocket. Roads and bridges should be tolled. People should be able to pay into public funds directly, if they want nice things they are going to have to "throw in for it."

Meanwhile, tolled roads increase all manner of "friction", as an economist would say.

Delays in shipping, more fierce road congestion, a demonstrable rise in accidents going in and out of the toll booths...

Its just simpler and more effient to add those "tolls" to the Fuel that we need to actually use the roads - oh wait, that's called a sales tax on gasoline.

Are you honestly saying that you wouldn't chip in if such a situation came to pass? For someone so worried about police being paid, you sure don't sound too willing to help out if given the chance.

Me? Her? We throw in where possible. Remember that link I gave earlier that said that the poor give a higher percentage of their income to charity than the rich? Yeah...

Here's the thing - we've built a legal structure in this world called a "corporation", which is bound to seek nothing but profit. It will externalize any cost that it can, it will cheat on its taxes, it will sell shoddy goods, it will make its goods in unsafe working conditions... all to save a buck. We've watched this time and again. Legally, it is *their job* to get away with anything we will let them.

Now, those corporations don't operate without people, taking on that same sociopathic mentality as a means of keeping their (very, very nice) salaries. I would argue that this discrepancy in charity is at least in part stemming from this corrosive environment.

[Denarius]

Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

The difference is, that you don't *have* to use an atm. Roads? Yeah, good luck not using those.

Exactly. Much more effecient, and it incentivises itself.

Its just simpler and more effient to add those "tolls" to the Fuel that we need to actually use the roads - oh wait, that's called a sales tax on gasoline.

No, the sales tax on gasoline only indirectly funds roads and bridges. Besides, a more effective toll system would be a boon either way. As for toll booths, well... There are ways around that.

Corporate policy is another beast in need of taming.

[Maria de Luna]

Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

Exactly. Much more effecient, and it incentivises itself.



No, the sales tax on gasoline only indirectly funds roads and bridges. Besides, a more effective toll system would be a boon either way. As for toll booths, well... There are ways around that.

Corporate policy is another beast in need of taming.

i don't think anyone is implying that the tax system is flawless, because if it was opposing views would not exist. But making the tax system disappear is impossible in this world where we are living, you can talk about principles and generosity all you want, but people do NOT function that way. How do you know if someone is violating your toll? How do you know how much road in a day a person is using? Or are you charging every car a portion? Then how long till you pay for the road? And police it, and fund a military, and pay teachers? Those are gonna be some expensive roads no one is educated enough to be able to afford to use...

[AzazelEblis]

Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

As for toll booths, well... There are ways around that.

People still have to slow down, pick a lane, go at a speed which the booth can detect... and avoid getting hit by all the traffic of 12 lanes trying to merge into 4 or 5. We're still looking at quite a bit o' friction there m'lad, even on top of a tax on gasoline which funds road maintenance. And reducing friction is the very premise of the Free Market theory of how an economy should run.

[westwoden]

Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

A society where everyone contributes and everyone is protected would be my ideal. I believe that people would chip in, if their choice was paying a toll to drive their car over a bridge or swimming across. (Or any number of other such situations.)

how would you fund all the minor roads and bridges?

a toll on every one - surely not.

who will pay for the police and military?

[AzazelEblis]

Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

how would you fund all the minor roads and bridges?

a toll on every one - surely not.

Yep, good point.

who will pay for the police and military?

And how will they negate any conflict of interest where the cops and soldiers end up enforcing increasingly unlawful mandates for their paychecks?

[westwoden]

Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

the laughable idea is that people will 'voluntarily' pay tax.

no way will that happen!

it's like saying people will go to the most expensive store just to help out the owner.

[AzazelEblis]

Re: Paul Ryan and his ideas from Ayn Rand

the laughable idea is that people will 'voluntarily' pay tax.

no way will that happen!

it's like saying people will go to the most expensive store just to help out the owner.

Uhm, I've done that. When you build a community, such things are possible. But the stores that can survive like that tend to offer higher quality goods, or fill a specific niche in both the economy *and* community.

I've seen a lot of stores like that go under lately.