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    #31
    Re: "God given right"

    Originally posted by nbdy View Post
    No, you haven't, though this statement
    ^ Don't know why you didn't finish it, but I did demonstrate how you failed to understand it. I explained, linked, and explained some more how inalienable rights didn't exist without social contract theory.

    sounds almost like you agree with my opinion.
    Wrong again.
    And we are talking about opinion because it is an abstract subject no matter how much you want to equate it with the concrete. Analogizing "rights" and "farming" ? Really?
    Again, you're resorting to changing the debate topic (look where you're posting. It's in the debates) and more condescending behavior. I was pointing out your "credentials" are dubious with the farming example. Examples illustrate a point. Such tactics like the one you pulled here are the last ditch efforts of someone who can't support their claims.


    The idea of natural rights basically emerged from a thought experiment -- if there was no government of any kind, would a person still have rights? If so, what would they be? My answer is no, there are no natural rights. I am not sure why this bothers you so much, but if it is important to you to change my mind present an argument rather than a personal attack. Tell me why you believe there are natural rights, from whence they come, and possibly what you believe they are.
    First of all, I'm attacking your ideas. I support my arguments with discussion points, examples, and counter points to your points. This is proper debating. YOU are the one slinging insults, using condescending remarks, and even condescending names. YOU are the one using ad hominem attacks on me. Now on to the rest of it...

    So because it's a thought experiment it can't be legit? Quantum physics does that all the time. Also, it doesn't "bother" me. I'm contesting a point you made in the debate section. It's a debate. I'm contesting your premise for your argument. That's how modern debates work. If that bothers YOU, take responsibility for your argument and premises.

    And I will definitely leave you to read Rousseau on your own time, anyone who claims the expertise you are claiming certainly should have already read him since the title is The Social Contract. In fact, I don't think I want to talk with you further if you can't stop sounding mean. Not seeing a net gain for myself here.
    The burden of proof is on you for that one, not me. Act like you're well read and do the work and support your claims. I never claimed expertise. YOU did.
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      #32
      Re: "God given right"

      That is enough of that!

      I've deleted the trolling posts. If there is no point, regarding rights or the [non-]existence of, it is not on-topic for this debate.

      To that end, I, and the rest of the staff, reserve the right to close this thread if people can't play nice, in it.




      "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

      "Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - Marcus Aurelius

      "The very ink with which history is written is merely fluid prejudice." - Mark Twain

      "The only gossip I'm interested in is things from the Weekly World News - 'Woman's bra bursts, 11 injured'. That kind of thing." - Johnny Depp


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        #33
        Re: "God given right"

        Originally posted by nbdy View Post
        The idea of natural rights basically emerged from a thought experiment -- if there was no government of any kind, would a person still have rights? If so, what would they be? My answer is no, there are no natural rights....
        Although this was addressed to Caelia. I'm going to butt in and say that I agree with you. The fundamental right is the right to life - without it, no other right is of any importance.

        Since people are (mechanically) easy to kill, and since an enormous number of people are killed daily, there are no absolute rights that can not be taken away. That's why we have the social contract. It only makes sense to talk about rights when there is some system of securing those rights - and that's the purpose of government, and the social contract.

        (for the record, I don't care about Rousseau or Locke. I'm too busy dealing with the reality of government as it is today in this country to spend a lot of time on back theory. You don't stop to read about the anatomy of tigers while you're busy wrestling with one...)
        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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          #34
          Re: "God given right"

          Originally posted by Medusa View Post
          Do we really have the right to freedom of religion?
          And more importantly as most of you are deity believers but not of the Abrahamic group:
          Does your deity give you any rights? Are the Abrahamic religions the only religion that have 'god given rights'?
          I don't think you can really answer that because it all depends on what you believe. If a person believes in god then their answer will be yes, these rights were granted by god. If another person doesn't believe in god then their answer would be no.

          So it really depends on your religion.
          [4:82]

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            #35
            Re: "God given right"

            I'm still not entirely sure I buy that whole social contract jazz. I mean, I was only just trying to work out the reality of inalienable rights being gifts from those with legal power and unalienable rights being inherent. Or not. A social contract? That sounds too much like a philosophical maelstrom to either apply blame or credit, depending on one's current state of mind or state of affairs, to something other than 'those responsible'.

            Like, here, these unalienable rights are now going to be given to another social class, of people. Is that an addendum to this contract? No. It's a slow process of removing bigotry, or racism, or whatever prejudice, that held a significant part of the society apart from those that already earned, or otherwise commandeered, these "inherent rights".

            Doesn't sound like a social contract theory, to me, in the slightest.




            "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

            "Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - Marcus Aurelius

            "The very ink with which history is written is merely fluid prejudice." - Mark Twain

            "The only gossip I'm interested in is things from the Weekly World News - 'Woman's bra bursts, 11 injured'. That kind of thing." - Johnny Depp


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              #36
              Re: "God given right"

              Maybe the best solution is to hand over all the rights to me and I'll dish them out to everyone.... ;-)


              Only joking. I think....
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                #37
                Re: "God given right"

                Well, the social contract doesn't mean that you have rights. It's actually a way of securing rights - it's a means to an end, but not an end.

                It's kind of like a union. A company owner has all the cards in his/her hand - money, equipment, etc., and an individual employee is pretty much powerless.

                However, if the employees band together in a union, they may have enough power as a group to force the employer to meet their demands. These demands are then written into a clear contract so that both sides are aware of their obligations and perks.

                Similarly, individual citizens don't have much pull with the government, since the government has bigger and better and more guns. But, by banding together, citizens can force the government to do or not do certain things. It's this pull between opposing forces that makes us use a social contract - which is written as "law" - between people and government - since the other choice is internal, civil war which isn't good for either citizens or government.

                But if people don't use their power, the social contract becomes one sided and can become very abusive.

                And it doesn't all work right the first time - we're still tuning our contract with the government (women have the right to vote now, ya know*), have been for 200 years, and will continue to do so as long as this country exists.


                * "the slow process of removing bigotry and racism" comes about as people's eyes are opened to new things which they haven't ever considered before -

                Women equal to men? Well, I'll be damned. Now that it's been pointed out to me, it makes sense...
                Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                  #38
                  Re: "God given right"

                  Originally posted by Dumuzi View Post
                  I don't think you can really answer that because it all depends on what you believe. If a person believes in god then their answer will be yes, these rights were granted by god. If another person doesn't believe in god then their answer would be no.

                  So it really depends on your religion.
                  You can believe in a God, even in the Christian one and still think of rights as man made. I don't remember anywhere in the Bible, Jehova taking some prophet aside and giving him a stone tablet of rights. There's no "thou shalt have the right..." in the 10 commandments or anywhere else in the Bible. I suppose at best you could argue that Jehova gives us the right to have one day of rest but it's not really a right when it's pretty much mandatory according to the Bible. It's like God going, "I'm not having you working harder than me. It'll make me look bad." Who is Jehova trying to impress?

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                    #39
                    Re: "God given right"

                    Originally posted by AL!CE View Post
                    You can believe in a God, even in the Christian one and still think of rights as man made.
                    Yes, that is true. But you can also believe in a god and think rights were given to you by that god. I wasn't trying to say that all believers in a deity share the same opinion.
                    [4:82]

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                      #40
                      Re: "God given right"

                      Originally posted by Dumuzi View Post
                      Yes, that is true. But you can also believe in a god and think rights were given to you by that god. I wasn't trying to say that all believers in a deity share the same opinion.
                      I'm glad we cleared up that confusion.

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                        #41
                        Re: "God given right"

                        Did anyone stop to define what "rights" are exactly? Or did we finish the whole debate without defining what we're discussing?
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                          #42
                          Re: "God given right"

                          Originally posted by AzazelEblis View Post
                          Did anyone stop to define what "rights" are exactly? Or did we finish the whole debate without defining what we're discussing?
                          I s'pose you could read the OP but what fun would that be?




                          "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

                          "Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - Marcus Aurelius

                          "The very ink with which history is written is merely fluid prejudice." - Mark Twain

                          "The only gossip I'm interested in is things from the Weekly World News - 'Woman's bra bursts, 11 injured'. That kind of thing." - Johnny Depp


                          Comment


                            #43
                            Re: "God given right"

                            Originally posted by ChainLightning View Post
                            I s'pose you could read the OP but what fun would that be?
                            Yeah, but when we can come to agree upon what a "right" is exacty, some consequences follow through. Maybe even a couple of hints as to from whence they came, as the OP was hoping to discuss. "Where they come from" and "what they are" is kindof a different discussion, even if they are related.
                            "A true initiation never ends"-Robert Anton Wilson
                            http://www.hermetic.com/crowley
                            "Reality has become a commodity"-Stephen Colbert 1/29/07
                            http://www.chaosmatrix.org/
                            "Sometimes, when you can't breathe, there are people there to breathe for you" - Aesop Rock
                            http://upholdingmaat.wordpress.com

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                              #44
                              Re: "God given right"

                              Originally posted by AzazelEblis View Post
                              Yeah, but when we can come to agree upon what a "right" is exacty, some consequences follow through. Maybe even a couple of hints as to from whence they came, as the OP was hoping to discuss. "Where they come from" and "what they are" is kindof a different discussion, even if they are related.

                              Well, yeah. That's true. I was simply going by the example that was given, there, as a kind of guideline. But it does sort of leave out what they actually are.


                              The thing is, in terms of having "God given rights", and the example being the right to religious freedom, as ambiguous as that can be, it is still a commonly understood and agreed upon, assuredly, meaning of the word "right". In the context of freedom of religion, in fact, it isn't the word 'right' that is confusing or vague, it's the words freedom and religion. But we still don't have any reason to assume that we're talking about or using different definitions of a word.

                              In which case, we've stumbled upon a common fallacy, most likely.




                              "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

                              "Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - Marcus Aurelius

                              "The very ink with which history is written is merely fluid prejudice." - Mark Twain

                              "The only gossip I'm interested in is things from the Weekly World News - 'Woman's bra bursts, 11 injured'. That kind of thing." - Johnny Depp


                              Comment


                                #45
                                Re: "God given right"

                                I don't know about the phrase "God given right", but I do believe freedom of religion is a "human right". I believe we all deserve a chance to believe what we choose without persecution. You know, as long as you're not bothering anybody. ("The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins." - Oliver Wendell Holmes)
                                I'm Pagan, and I believe I deserve the same human rights as everybody else.

                                - - - Updated - - -

                                Originally posted by AzazelEblis View Post
                                Did anyone stop to define what "rights" are exactly? Or did we finish the whole debate without defining what we're discussing?
                                human rights

                                pl.n.

                                The basic rights and freedoms to which all humans are entitled, often held to include the right to life and liberty, freedom of thought and expression, and equality before the law.

                                rights


                                n. 1) plural of right, which is the collection of entitlements which a person may have...

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