DEBATE! Paganism and Religious Tolerance.

[Chevalier]

Wondering what other people will think of this. Interested to hear other views.

A friend of mine recently informed me that as "A Pagan" I should approve of religious hatred directed at Christians.

The friend in question is equal parts Wiccan / Agnostic / screaming (literally) Anti-theist.

I think this is bunk, but I'm interested in what people on other paths have to say.

[Juniper]

Re: Paganism and Religious Tolerance.

We used to have a really good and lengthy topic about Religious (in)tolerance. But we've since lost it due to a crash some years ago. We did have the topic surface again a while ago. Here's the link:

http://www.paganforum.com/showthread.php?213-Tolerance&highlight=tolerance

[MaskedOne]

Re: Paganism and Religious Tolerance.

1) Christianity attempts to have as much variance as Pagans. I don't judge Heathens by the actions of Hellenics and I'm not about to judge Episcopalians by the actions of Calvinists.

2) People are generally more than a mouthpiece for a specific theology. I don't generally condemn for theology. I may condemn based on actions taken in furtherance of a theology but until a person's beliefs translate into actions, they aren't my problem.

3) I'm far too lazy to pick a fight with 2.1 billion people unless I need to. Call me flawed but I see "hate the evil Christian" rants and my second response (after the "again?!!! really?!!!!") tends to be "thank your gods that you aren't important enough for Christianity to unify against and focus on".

Shrug, I also refuse to claim the descriptor of Pagan so your friend's statement doesn't technically apply to me regardless.

[Ophidia]

Re: Paganism and Religious Tolerance.

I feel that much of the hatred/dislike of Christianity by Pagans & all those who fall under our loosely packed umbrella-label, is misplaced. A lot of it is just bad historical research, and a lot of it is finger-pointing holier-than-thouism. You don't see much of it any more, but back in the good ol' days, there were tons of 'Never Again the Burning Times' paraphernalia - forum banners, bumper stickers, pins, banners, flags, posters, etc. Yes, some legitimate Pagans were persecuted by the Catholics/Jesuits/Christians, but good Pagan Romans had no trouble throwing Christians to lions. The Christians destroyed groves & temples, but those groves & temples were most likely already stolen from an earlier people by various Pagan cults in between.

No religion is lily-white, or more or less deserving of criticism than another religion. There have even been sects of Buddhist terrorists. But like any other debate, you need to apply some research, critical thinking and honesty about your own choices to your argument.

[Clive]

Re: Paganism and Religious Tolerance.

How is it possible to be both Wiccan and anti-theist? Wicca by its very definition is either duotheistic or polytheistic and is very God/dess-centric. Fiona Horne also baffles me by saying that she is simultaneously Wiccan and atheist.

In any case, the only problem I have when it comes to any religious person is hypocrisy, and it just so happens that some Christians are hypocrites. I think Christianity is a fine religion, but when someone says "Give your heart to Jesus" and "F- you" in the same sentence, I can't take that person seriously.

Does your friend believe that Pagans are obligated to hate Christians because of their differing theologies or for the simple fact that Christianity is a theism? Regardless, anyone who says that any group should hate another will not be taken seriously by me.

[Raphaeline]

Re: Paganism and Religious Tolerance.

Personally, I've gotten to the point that I don't even care. I don't normally hate Christianity or Christians, although sometimes I get very angry toward it/them.

But I consider one of the benefits of polytheism to be the wonderful liberation of not giving a crap what other people do.

[anunitu]

Re: Paganism and Religious Tolerance.

My only real concern with Abrahamic religions is the duality of "Love everyone,and be kind" and the "Eye for an Eye" "You are all wrong,and I will save your soul by killing you" thing. The basic Christian "Love your brother as yourself" I can understand and consider a good path,but when you see a supposed Christian show their true colors,and lash out in what I think is an inner anger that lies hidden for a time,then I find myself remembering Gandi's words "I like your Christ very much,but not so much your Christians"

[Zephyranth]

Re: Paganism and Religious Tolerance.

One of the Wiccan principles I've been taught is not to show hatred towards another's religion... Perhaps your friend has been taught differently than I, but if not than this seems very contradictory to me...
Personally, after I stopped considering myself a Christian, I was very angry at Christianity for a long while. I needed somewhere to take out my anger, and that's where I aimed it. But since then, I have realized that it's not going to get me anywhere to hate someone else's religion. I can't sit around and be mad about the people who look down on me for being a Wiccan, if I look down on them for being Christian. The only thing I will ever dislike about a person concerning this topic, is if they religiously look down on someone else because they don't agree with what they believe in. As such, I make it my goal not to judge people based on what they believe (so long as their religion does not involve hurting themselves or anyone else).
I have also found that some Pagans are so angry that they just feel the need to hate something. I think that's sad, honestly. Unfortunately, people of other religions become the object of hate, because people feel like they should hate the "other side" and feel obligated to show they are a "real" Pagan by showing how against Christianity they are. Bullshit, I think.

[Aeran]

Re: Paganism and Religious Tolerance.

I have a really hard time figuring out exactly what my feelings about Christianity are. On the one hand, I know a lot of really nice people who are Christian, and who feel that their lives are made better through their faith, and I try not to begrudge them that. But on the other, I have a really hard time reconciling that with all of the horrible things that Christianity has stood for over the years. Humanity as a whole has suffered greatly, and still suffers, under Christian bigotry and the corresponding desire to oppress and control. Maybe they no longer conduct crusades or torture heretics, but Christianity still wields a huge amount of power against progress, freedom and equality when it comes to issues like gender equality, LGBT rights, Middle Eastern politics, and so on.

I understand that you can't necessarily hold any individual member responsible for the actions of the religious organization they belong to, but I don't see many rank and file Church members standing up against this kind of bigotry either. There are incredibly few people working from within Christianity to make it the force for good it should be, instead most of them just seem to just shrug and wallow in the status quo. If you press them they might make an uncomfortable statement about how 'maybe gays aren't that bad' or 'well I don't necessarily agree with everything the priest says,' or talk about free will and personal choice, but in the end they still turn up to Church and hand in their donation and listen to the priest and don't say anything about all of the horrible things their religion is saying and doing, and that's what really bothers me. I see so few Christians who actually stand up and try to emulate the teachings of Christ, instead it just seems like an excuse to feel special because turning up to a social club once a week will make the creator of the universe love them and forgive their sins, and they don't bother to stop and think and speak out about anything because then they might not fit in with their Church friends.

The saying goes 'your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins,' and I think the same goes for religious tolerance. I don't have a problem with them believing whatever they want, but when they try and use those beliefs to dictate other people's lives, they cross the line. Freedom of religion doesn't mean freedom to force your religious values on other people, and too many Christians either actively do so, or stand by and tacitly support it by not speaking out.

That said, I don't think this is an issue specific to Pagans as much as it is an issue relevant to humanity as a whole. There's a certain subset of the Pagan community which likes to play the victim and talk about how discriminated against they are (the whole "burning times" thing, which is not only absurd but completely devoid of historicity), but the reality is that we've had it incredibly easy compared to a lot of other groups, and imo it belittles their struggle to deny that. What I think we need to do is counter close mindedness and bigotry, not by attacking any specific religion, no matter how closely they're correlated with such behavior, but by providing an example of universal acceptance and appreciation, and for the most part I think the Pagan community does this pretty well

[Dez]

Re: Paganism and Religious Tolerance.

Creating some sort of universal statement about how Pagans, or Christians, or anyone "should" act in relation to another group is rather silly and short-sighted, IMO. It strikes me as rather shallow of the OP's friend, and I can see why you're annoyed by it.

On the flip side, I think that within reason there should be some space given to people who are on a pagan path partially because of cruelty, abuse, or viciousness inflicted on them by a specific Christian group. There are a lot of people who have those feelings towards Christianity because they were bullied and mistreated. I don't think returning violence(even verbal) is the answer, but it's possible to feel ignored or silenced until it just splatters everywhere. This is especially true for people leaving ultra-conservative denominations, where they might lose their entire group of friends and family if they are up-front about what they actually believe. Is anger justified at that point? Often, yes...even if it needs to be channeled appropriately.

[Louisvillian]

Re: Paganism and Religious Tolerance.

How is it possible to be both Wiccan and anti-theist? Wicca by its very definition is either duotheistic or polytheistic and is very God/dess-centric.

You'd be surprised how many neopagans in the 1960s, even some that had a big role in the development of it as a religious movement, were atheistic. A lot held to the idea that 'the gods' were Jungian archetypes, mental constructions of the collective subconscious that only had 'power' because we imagined them so. Neopaganism kinda "became" polytheistic, and pretty gradually at that, fusing with a separate but contemporary Polytheist revivalist movement.

Anyway, as far as the question of religious tolerance goes. I think all people should be tolerant of other beliefs, regardless of the belief system they adhere to. I can understand why someone might disagree, and why someone might have an aggressively adversarial attitude towards Christianity or what-have-you; but it's juvenile and has no place among rational adults.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Paganism and Religious Tolerance.

I think people who have a tendency towards intolerance will usually find something they believe justifies it. It's just a stick to beat the dog with...

[Maria de Luna]

Re: Paganism and Religious Tolerance.

I have trouble hating a group for being hateful, not alot of trouble, there are people I am sad to say that I would watch burn, (very few, but they exist) but it is not because they are Christian, it is because they are hateful. Individual people are not representations of a group, heck even groups are not representations of a whole. Lumping all christians together puts the Westboro Babtist Phelpses in the same bloody category as Methodists, Presbyterians, and Catholics. It doesn't make sense, (trust me it doesn't.) Even beyond that smushing all Abrahamic faiths together for generalizations is even less sensible.
In the end I suppose I don't understand the point in wasing my time on hating people. I just don't. In general Jesus had some good things to say, and I can't find a good reason to hate a whole bloody enormous group of people for the actions of just a few and a bunch of dead people. Tell your friend to hate who she likes, but that you just don't have the energy for it, at least if that's the way you feel. There are really a whole bunch of Christians, and I would not reccommend bothering to hate any of them really.

[nbdy]

Re: Paganism and Religious Tolerance.

I have sincerely struggled with the issue of tolerance. I suspect that this is another one of those things where the idea of it is appealing but the reality of it is not. What we believe matters at a very fundamental level because it is those beliefs that both enable and constrain what we do in the world and to the world. Any faith system that maintains that humans are the only spiritual thing on the earth will necessarily approach living in ways that will turn my stomach. A classic example was about a decade ago when Coulter declared that God had given humans the earth to do whatever we wanted, burn it, rape it, it didn't matter. Now, I know that this is a person who makes her living being contentious and bizarre, but a sufficient number of people agree with such a statement enough to keep her in pretty good cash flow. And it matters. It matters that this mind set is literally tearing the tops off of mountains and poisoning the water around them. So, tolerance, what does that mean? Does it mean that it is OK to believe anything you want so long as you don't DO anything stupid to the rest of us? Is that workable? Joe Schmoe who honestly believes that Jesus is about to split the sky and take him away from this pillaged planet -- what incentive does he have to stop pillaging what he sees as a dead resource about to be left behind when he goes to glory. It matters. I don't think hating some one for their beliefs is the answer, but engaging them and taking action to stop damaging beliefs from doing more harm is important. It is not hatred, but courage, strength, and love that is the correct response, imo, but that is not the same as tolerance. Tolerance is holding one's nose while remaining disdainfully silent.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Paganism and Religious Tolerance.

soo....

Evengelical Paganism?